Peace all, and God bless

I pray everone is doing well.

Brother Believer how are you?

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
They certainly don't find him in the Torah!As well as they don't find any mention of trees and rocks calling out to muslims to come kill them either.


H_G said>

This is a prophecy, not a command.

That's not the point.The point is, you keep referring to the Jews not accepting Jesus etc...so I am saying, as a whole, no they don't, but neither do they accept Muhammad at all.

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
Exscuse me, but HE was born a Jewish.What practices are you saying HE didn't follow?


H_G said>

He was a Jew in that he followed the Mosaic laws, not the laws that existed and were practiced by most Jews in his time.

Such as???

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
So much for free speech huh?So let's get this straight, you condone beheading people becuase of negative poetry?Yet you said earlier in this thread that you were against people being oppressed?Yeah they propbably were reading there Torah, and showed how far away from their Books teachings Muhmmad was, so bang, 'Off with their heads'!Pretty sick reasoning.


H_G said>

Except this wasn't a matter of mere disbelief. The poetry wasn't a few verses of "well to you be your way and to me mine, I disbelieve". When people mix truth with falsehood, and slander God's religion in order to distort the message of God and purposefully misguide people, then these people don't fall under the umbrella of "free speech," they have openly declared themselves as enemies of God.

Imagine Jesus (pbuh) during one of his sermons to the apostles and a deviant who would yell at the top of his voice to ridicule Jesus's words and drown him out, then bely what he had said to would-be believers outside.

First of all, Jesus dealt with alot of disbelief, but no where did he command anyone to murder another!It just didn't happen.Frankly anyone who tried to trick HIM with questions, etc...ended up loosing every time.Because HE was so knowledgable of HIS Sciprtures.No one could refute HIM.So with the words of HIS mouth HE dealt with them, in a peaceful, helping way, rather than ordering their heads to be cut off!

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
Then it would show the Qu'ran as false, since it admits Jesus was sinless.What I mean is that if HE was and IS sinless, yet HE was not really crucified, then HE would have been a willing participant in decieving others, and letting lies about HIMSELF be told.Frankly the whole discussion would have been moot if the Jews simply showed the body etc...yet that is exactly what didn't happen.HE was seen by HIS disciples, and showed the where the nails had "pierced" HIM etc...Why would God deceive anyone about it?HE IS truth, not a lier, so be careful what you attribute HIM.


H_G said>

No not at all, but an excellent question I have to say. Yes Jesus was sinless and he never uttered a lie. But at the same time he never was a part of any "deception". You base what Jesus said and did on the Biblical account, but you don't know that this is what Jesus actually said and did. Jesus' true followers all knew the creed they had been taught by Jesus and it didn't revolve around Jesus' future crucifixion. That's why the only thing that's moot are the later interpretations of the crucifixion into tenets of Trinitarian Christian faith. The body removed from the crucifix was not Jesus', as the whole crucifixion of Jesus himself did not occur, but was only made to appear to them so, and for anyone who actually followed Jesus' message, it had no bearing on the tenets of faith even if some BELIEVED it was him that had been crucified, because Jesus (pbuh) had never placed this event in the context of the body of religious teachings. It was only later that people ascribed meaning to it from assuming that Jesus (pbuh) had died on the cross.

Now that's a load there friend.You base your claims on Islamic beliefs, some from the Qu'ran, which do not clearly state HE wasn't crucified, to my knowledge.The fact that HIS disciples died as martyrs testifing HE was crucified, dead buried, and ressurected, says plenty towards athenticity.For the sake of argument we could say it may be reasonable to assume a couple would have lied about such a thing, but not to the point of death, and not the numbers that died saying what they witnessed.Not many will die knowing they are dying based on a lie.

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
By the way, talk about poems songs etc...Tell us about the songs Palestinian children are taught at very young ages, and who knows where else it is taught, that "Arabs are beloved, and Jews are dogs?!I know people who grew up there are say they were absolutley taught that as children, and that everything in their everyday lives was and is about hating Jews etc...


H_G said>

Well I don't really know any songs like that, but I think it's sad that you want to fuel your hate of Islam with the things that Arabs or Muslims shouldn't do anyway. "Muslims do this therefore Islam is bad" ideology is foolish, because anyone can tell you that if and when people preach hate, then it's not Islamic. Plus it's not like hate is monopolized:

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=0§ion=9&article=27148&d=8&m=6&y=2003

Frankly it's not me spewing hate, that is what is taught to these people.I know it from first hand accounts of my friends and brothers that were raised in Bethlehem, and later Jericho, and were at one time very violent in thought word and deeds towards Jews.You say they shouldn't do that etc...but I say again where is the Islamic voice condemning such things?It's being taught in the Mosques, and everywhere, and in everything nearly, in one way or another.As well as the fact that the Qu'ran, says, 'Take not Jews and Christians as your friends, they are friends to themselves' etc...No sadly hate is everywhere, so is ignorance.When I see the news of some of our troops treating pow's badly, that disgusts me, especially since we are there to end such behaviour, yet some do such things is reprehensible, and they will have to answer for their actions.


ILJ/Y said>Quote:
because if someone says they follow Jesus or accept HIM as their Messiah, then goes against HIS teachings and the way HE lived, then they are a mockery to themselves, not Jesus, nor HIS words


H_G said>

True, but in order to make that comparison someone first has to be sure he knows what Jesus taught. Otherwise their benchmark is warped and they reject what Jesus actually taught.

Absolutley, so then we check for ealier writings on HIM, and other sources, some of which are not friendly, which describe what HIS followers believed and were saying and doing immediatley after His ressurection, and ascencion.I am not going to get all into the details just now, but I will later.We certainly don't look to the Qu'ran to find out HIS 'true sayings' because they were already written long before Muhammad was born, and since Muhammad was told to check those Scriptures which were already existant, they weren't corrupt at that point, and certainly couldn't have been corrupted after Islam, because you couldn't get people to change what they already had in writing to accept something totally contradictory, and much taken from unaccepted books etc...So I agree the benchmark (Islam) is warped and Muslims reject what Jesus really taught.

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
Saudia is very much the advocate of Shiria law and Islamic laws in general, come on now.


H_G said>

Oh don't get me wrong, I completely advocate Shariah laws, I just don't think that Saudi Arabia is implementing them properly. If it was, it would need to punish the Royal Family first and foremost for the billions of dollars it embezzles from the country.

I don't know if they embezzle or not, without a doubt they live better than most in the world.

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
In Saudia Arabia it is illegal to have a Christian Bible,


H_G said>

Not a law in Shariah

No but pushed and enforced in the Holy of Holies to Muslims.

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
to convert to Christianity.


H_G said>

Can't be illegal to believe what you believe unless you openly declare it, which I don't think anyone would need to if they are truly worshipping God and not doing it to please people.

No but when they raid houses or someone tells them somoeone has converted to Christianity, then they are beaten tortured, and beheaded in public, it still shows extreme intolerance, and compulsion in religion!So you think, a Christian in Saudia Arabia, should stay locked away with HIS faith, when the persons Lord, said to tell the nations of HIM?Yet Muslims expect Mosques to be put up where ever they are, but not return favor huh?

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
It is illegal to build a Church or synagogue there, and there are none.

True, it is not lawful to build a place of worship besides a Mosque on Muslim land unless it is purchased by a non-Muslim and then they can do what they want with it.

Yes I am sure a Muslim could build a Christian church, or a Jewish synagogue there!I am also sure no harm would come to one who did such!!!

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
If a Muslim is caught for converting to Christianity, it is well known fact that they are taken into a public area etc...and beheaded!!!


HG>

Not sure how someone can be caught in the act of conversion, but if someone openly declares their disbelief and begins to prosthelitize falsehood against Islam, that's where I think there are problems.

Well, if you were a Muslim before, and someone sees a Bible on you or in your home etc...and reports you to the authorities, then you are considered an infidel, and bye bye head :evil: Why shouldn't someone be allowed to tell their beliefs, especially when Muslims tell their beliefs in other countries?

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
It's a big public event, much like in Afghanistan where they showed them shooting a woman in the head with an ak47 at point blank range in the soccer field.


H_G said>

I saw that actually, not that I think the Taliban know what a true Islamic state is, but we never actually found out what that execution was for. There's a big difference between being executed for allegedly converting from Islam to being executed for having murdered your husband.

I am pretty confident it was widley known, they shot her for adultery! I am against adultery, but I don't think being shot in the head at point blank range fits the crime.Not today anyway!Especially if the ones doing the shooting, are murderers, and guilty of other crimes, which makes them a hypocrite.

ILJ/Y said>Quote:
So much for religious tolerance huh?Or "no compulsion in religion"!!! Please don't go to S.A. and say they don't advocate laws of Islam


H_G said>

Right, nobody can be forced to accept Islam.

Let's see, ones hand may be chopped off for converting, ostracized from your family, treated like a traitor,sometimes tortured until the person comes back to Islam, or then killed! No that doesn't sond forced to me!Anybody else?


ILJ/Y said>Quote:
Frankly, the texts that you say are alleged, are far earlier than Islam's texts, so IMHO that rules out any authority of the Qu'ran to dictate to us what is authentic, and what is not.


H_G said>

Except we aren't working from non-divine texts.

Not in the Qu'ran.

And even if we were, earlier doesn't always mean more authentic.

Nor doesn't it invalidate them either.It certainly gives more credibilty the closer to the events, rather than coming after another and claiming this is what those really meant, when there are existant texts that show otherwise!

Quote:
Jesus died with the wicked like a criminal, and He was buried in a rich man's tomb, and He died of course. He was raised, his days were prolonged. He was a guilt offering for us, as this was the Father's will.
He bears our iniquities.


But I don't believe that Jesus (pbuh) died, my understanding of those lines would be limited to divine revelation.

The apostle Peter said there would be scoffers who would deny these things/sound doctrine etc...


You believe that which you wish to.



Peace all,

ILJ/Y