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It seems you misunderstood my question entirely I was trying to show you how your chain of transmission was never utilised for the koran, and that hadith never implied chronology as you keep on insisting. Here is my hadith quote again: Bukhari 6 201 (Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost {Please specify how this relates to chronology it simply states a large part of the koran maybe lost, how do you get that the large part implies chronology?] ), unless you collect it. Mohammed died in 632AD or 11 years after the hejirah, the battle of Yamama takes place a year later in 633AD or 12 years after the hejira. From the links you gave me it states: "The first one to utilise the isnâd (chain of reporters) was Ibn Shihab al-Zuhrî" (d. 124)." Notice he died 124 years after the hejira or 113 years after Mohammed, how can you claim a certain number of people have to be around to verify the transmission of the koran and that the hadith only refers to chronology, when the first person to practice the verification of chains of reporters wasn't even born yet.
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2: Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over). Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3: Narrated 'Aisha: Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 6, Book 61, Number 508: Narrated Safwan bin Ya'la bin Umaiya: Ya'la used to say, "I wish I could see Allah's Apostle at the time he is being inspired Divinely." When the Prophet was at Al-Ja'rana and was shaded by a garment hanging over him and some of his companions were with him, a man perfumed with scent came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is your opinion regarding a man who assumes Ihram and puts on a cloak after perfuming his body with scent?" The Prophet waited for a while, and then the Divine Inspiration descended upon him. 'Umar pointed out to Ya'la, telling him to come. Ya'la came and pushed his head (underneath the screen which was covering the Prophet ) and behold! The Prophet's face was red and he kept on breathing heavily for a while and then he was relieved..." Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 461: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: that he heard the Prophet saying, "The Divine Inspiration was delayed for a short period but suddenly, as I was walking. I heard a voice in the sky, and when I looked up towards the sky, to my surprise, I saw the angel who had come to me in the Hira Cave, and he was sitting on a chair in between the sky and the earth. I was so frightened by him that I fell on the ground and came to my family and said (to them), 'Cover me! (with a blanket), cover me!' Then Allah sent the Revelation: "O, You wrapped up (In a blanket)! (Arise and warn! And your Lord magnify And keep pure your garments, And desert the idols." (74.1-5) Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 58, Number 170: Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When the Ka'ba was rebuilt, the Prophet and 'Abbas went to carry stones. 'Abbas said to the Prophet "(Take off and) put your waist sheet over your neck so that the stones may not hurt you." (But as soon as he took off his waist sheet) he fell unconscious on the ground with both his eyes towards the sky. When he came to his senses, he said, "My waist sheet! My waist sheet!" Then he tied his waist sheet (round his waist). Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 4: Narrated Said bin Jubair: Ibn 'Abbas in the explanation of the Statement of Allah. 'Move not your tongue concerning (the Quran) to make haste therewith." (75.16) Said "Allah's Apostle used to bear the revelation with great trouble and used to move his lips (quickly) with the Inspiration."... Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 3, Book 27, Number 17: ...So, Allah inspired the Prophet divinely and he was screened by a place of cloth. I wished to see the Prophet being divinely inspired. 'Umar said to me, 'Come! Will you be pleased to look at the Prophet while Allah is inspiring him?' I replied in the affirmative. 'Umar lifted one corner of the cloth and I looked at the Prophet who was snoring. (The sub-narrator thought that he said: The snoring was like that of a camel). When that state was over, the Prophet... Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 2, Book 24, Number 544: ...Then we noticed that he was being inspired divinely. Then the Prophet wiped off his sweat... Bear in mind there is no record of a previous prophet undergoing these symptoms when obtaining messages from God, this looks like someone who is spiritually and physically unwell.
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What 'laws' did Noah practice that was dissimilar to Araham, do you realise the convenant was to Abraham's and his seed, that progeny was to be seperated out and made as a shining light to the world, does your koran even highlight why the Israelites had to be freed from Egypt? Try and see the logical fallacy in your reasoning here, Noah had some 'laws' and Abraham had a set of additional 'laws' which in your opinion included circumnavigating the ka'ba and the hajj pilgrimage, then along comes Moses but he didn't circumnavigate the ka'ba or do the hajj pilgrimage (ask yourself why) then along comes Mohammed to bring everybody back to circumnavigating the ka'ba and the hajj pilgrimage which Jesus and all the other prophets after Moses did and their followers corrupted it with no archaelogical evidence for this stance.
Unitarianism: Sometimes called antitrinitarianism, is to be found in the Arian controversy of the early fourth century when Arius, presbyter in the church at Alexandria, set forth the system of thought which bears his name. He denied the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity and asserted that there was a time when God was not the Father and Jesus Christ was not the Son. Because God foresaw the merit of Jesus the man, Christ was accorded a kind of divinity, but he was never of the same substance as the Father although he is worthy of worship. This early and rather high form of Unitarianism was condemned by the Council of Nicaea in 325 and by the Council of Constantinople in 381." So the early unitarians in the arabian peninsula didn't worship Jesus? I find your claim about unitarians just as convenient as your claim that the pagan idol worshippers had the true message of God.
what about His comments that "I am the way the truth and the life no man cometh to the Father but by Me"?
when do you differentiate who is allah and who is mohammed? sura 49:1 Believers, do not behave presumptuously in the presence of God and His Apostle. Have fear of God: God hears all and knows all. Believers, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor shout aloud when speaking to him as you do to one another.... I am asking you to apply some logical sense to this sura I am not asking you to refer me to an islamic apologist website with mass produced irrelevant material, look at the above sura and ask yourself if someone was being asked a lot of questions and he just wanted to be left alone, doesn't it look like he just made it up?. Think, this is for all mankind what on earth does this command about not raising your voice above the voice of the prophet have to do with a message for all mankind?
This is not a case of wallowing in defeat or victory, it seems you are being evasive over what I asked, let me get straight to the point, it is good that you mention it is a major prophecy (lets face it thats the only major prophecy in your koran), think about it the message for all mankind's major prophecy has a prediciton that the romans would defeat the byzantines, done over a bet... it's like me having a camp fire discussion and saying " Bush will defeat saddam in about 3 months, who wants to bet with me". I hope you are aware that Yusuf Ali says Mohammed's "short time" meant it would occur between 3 to 9 years, when in fact the victory occurred some 14 years later. How exactly does this help us identify that this is from God what about events in the next 1400 years, is this the best prediction that the islamic god could do in his message to all mankind, a prediction outcome that is too close to the event?
"Sa`id ibn Khalid said: I went in to see Abu Salama. He brought us some butter and date pastry. A fly fell into the dish. Abu Salama began to submerge it (yamquluhu) with his finger. I said, "Uncle! What are you doing?" He said: "Truly, Abu Sa`id al-Khudri told me that the Messenger of Allah said, 'In one of the fly's two wings there is poison and in another, its antidote. If it falls into food, submerge it in it; for it sends the poison first and keeps the cure last.'" Do you think this early muslims thought it was figurative?
I quote from www.prophetmuhammed.org "Historical, rational or medical grounds cannot substantiate the theory of Epilepsy or any such ailment, because the Prophet (sal) was of exceptional mental/physical health till his death" Bukhari 7 549 "I never saw anybody suffering so much from sickness as Allah's Apostle" You can verify if you want that I didn't take this out of context.
I see you believe the quran says the previous revelations were distorted to justify it's existence? show us those verses in the quran that say the previous revelations were distorted, notice I asked for the koran and not the hadith, no need for links the verses should suffice.
How miraculous is it really? You have already acknowledged Mohammed had access to jewish scriptures and he told Zaid to study the book of the jews, Mohammed didn't write the koran, Zaid and the scribes that he and uthman hired did, how do we know they simply didn't plagiarise already existent material, rhyming poems and claim it is divine, what exactly is the miracle of having text with multiples of 19? How does islam differ from any other religion that say do good works, and legalism to the point of being obsessively compulsive?
Is that so? Please let us look at the story of Abraham and the alledged sacrifice of Ishmael in your koran you said the koran is more accurate tell me if it is so accurate why doesn't it mention Ishmael by name as the sacrifice? why doesn't it even mention Hagar the mother of the arabs during the entire koran, you would have thought someone so pre eminent as the mother of the arabs and the mother of Ishmael the alledged sacrifical son would at least get a mention in the holy text, a reference at least. You wouldn't know Abraham had another wife unless you read the bible, you wouldn't know who Ishmael's mother was unless you read the bible, you wouldn't know that Abraham's name was not always Abraham unless you read the bible. These observations are concurrent with someone who heard stories from the jews and simply incorporated it into a new religion. It would explain why there is no chronology in the koran, the stories are simply a plethora of bastardised biblical scripture. If your koran's description of the sacrifice is so accurate tell me why is there a split school of thought within islam on who the sacrificial son was? that many have to resort to the bible to remotely justify their claim that it was Ishmael.
All read from the sunnah, Bukhari, muslim, Ishaq, Tabari all islamic sources, I read how Mohammed obtained followers by promising them quraish booty and paradise if they died following him in stealing booty from honest businessmen and enslaving their women, how he attacked quraish caravans repeatedly, how his followers killed and stole booty in the sacred month of rahab (incidentally it is very revealing on sura 9:5, have you ever wondered why God would ask his followers to respect a pagan festival such as rahab?) If the commandment contradict themselves I have to quadruple check from what I know that I indeed am hearing from God.
And if you don't believe God sent Jesus to die for our sins, you put yourself back in the spiritual bonds of legalism. Very simple, I look at the prophecies in the previous revelations (old testament) I look at them fulfilled in the new testament, I see a God with the same message of deliverance for his creation. I don't see christianity claiming the jews corrupted their books but accept and see the revelation and it's spiritual implications personified in Jesus, islam on the other hand needs to discredit and insult the intelligence of the followers of the same God who sent both previous revelations to justify it's existance.
Bukhari vol 5 266 "By Allah, though I am the apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me" |
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