and prophecies (did you also notice there was no link for this? just plain text, I take it that link was under construction). It then mentions the sources of the quran, the issue of abrogation, the tafsir of the quran (why bother with an interpretation if this is the final revelation for mankind understandable by a child). Further along the page it launches an attack on the integrity of the bible (wait a minute, isn't this website suppose to be about the sources of the koran, or is the logic the best form of defence here is to attack).

Yes, the prophecies section is left blank in both the Bible and Qur'an section.

Interpretation is the reason why Messengers are sent with the Message. The theological points of the Qur'an can be understood by anyone, though.

I think it talks about the Bible to put it under the same scrutiny and compare how both texts stand.

so everything that is non contradictory in the hadiths about the good nature and irrefutability of the koran is true and everything that is contradictory about the good nature of Mohammed and irrefutablility of the koran is false, please tell me you see the logical fallacy of this stance?

Is this the reason they gave for the weakness of the hadiths?

Do you notice how the authors contradict the very sura that this is not the statement of a poet in this case the justification for third person singular to first person singular is so that it rhymes?. It gives a ludicrous excuse for the other grammatical shifts to convey surprise, fear, attack, majesty how come God never did this for any of the previous revelations?

For one thing, the QUr'an is the direct word of God, not the words of men written ABOUT revelation, which is the case for the Old and New Testaments. Second of all, the Qur'an style is in metered prose, Saj', so that's what he means by keeping the "rhyme".

I ask again does it make logical sense for there to be no abrogations in a 3,000+ span (but fulfilled prophecies) and all of a sudden a 22 year span of revelations has numerous abrogations.

The issue of abrogation has to do with how the QUr'an was revealed in 10 ayah increments for 23 years:

http://www.islamanswers.net/Quran/stages.htm
http://www.youngmuslims.ca/online_libra ... h1S4s8.htm

Your other site http://www.prophetmuhammed.org/ is an alledged biography of Mohammed, it lists his character, his wives, his battles, his relations and his credentials, his character is flawless, his treatment of his wives are honourable, his battles are justified, his relations are superb, everybody loved Mohammed, the only problem is and which I suggest you do is have a look at the bibliography, not one source of the sunnah is utilised in the compilation of that whole website ( how on earth do we judge a religion other than it's religious scripture?), every single book in that bibliography is from a muslim apologetic written after 1980 aimed at making islam look good to the west, they are not utilising the sunnah where exactly are they referring to build such a picture of Mohammed? how do I know I am not reading a pack of lies? are they reading the same material in the sunnah the ones where Mohammed congratulated people for killing people that ridiculed him, an old woman, little girls, demanding one of his followers gives him a slave girl, coming back to meet the follower in the market the next day and demanding the slave girl and leaving to repeat the demand the next day, punching a teenage girl (Aisha) so hard in the chest it caused her great pain all because she frightened him in the moonlight?
or are they picking and choosing which hadiths they like and which ones they don't want to believe?

Actually that site takes everything from authenticated Sirah of the Prophet.

The question you should really be asking yourself is, is YOUR version of his biography accurate. Everything you know about the Prophet was written in the 17th and 18th century by Europeans in the Middle East who were trying to break the Muslim backbone of the region. So yes, you should ask yourself, how do I know I'm not being lied to (because whomever you believe at this point will affect your afterlife) and should I rest my belief in the Prophet of God on hearsay or hadiths of which I'm not sure where they came from nor who transmitted them.

There's many stages of disbelief. You're still in the "Muhammad was a bad man therefore I don't believe what was revealed to him" phase. Most Christians get past this stage as soon as they take a good look at authentic autobiographical material. Higher stages of disbelief include "Muhammad MUST have been an educated, literate man who was well versed in Judaism and Christianity" and the highest stage of disbelief, the last bastion I should say is, "well, I choose to believe in the Bible anyway". I think you should at least try to get to the last stage so it shows you've made an effort to understand Islam.

Exactly what do you expect me to 'understand' by giving me these websites?. I am by now beginning to suspect that you are unable to defend your beliefs with logic and your quran and sunnah alone. If I wanted a discussion with a website I know where to go.

No I don't think you do know where to go, and that's why I direct you with websites. We can't have a logical discussion until we share the same background information. Otherwise before we even get to logic we're coming from double narratives. I also think that the more you read the more educated questions you'll come up with. The reason I give you websites is because I refer you to people with more knowledge than myself. And of course I myself can't pull of a Qur'anic verse or relevant hadith every time the occasion pops up, I'm not at that level yet, so that's why I take you to people who can.

That is exactly what logic brings me to.
So Joseph Smith was not getting revelations from a malicious being locked up in that cave, did he make it up or did he really hear something from a spirit pretending to be angel Gabriel (familiar?).

Have you read the Book of Mormon? How can you even compare that to the Qur'an? Do you remember the sketchy circumstances under which the BoM was revealed?

Are you aware that spiritists, mediums, clairaudients, clairvoyants, see and hear things other people do not hear or see, do you think what they see and hear is all good and from God, do you not think that these people are confused, they could be hearing something demonic and the demonic being is telling them they are from God even though they do good deeds and their heart is in the right place watch crossing over or any one of those so called intercession with the dead programs, this is what logic leads me to, considering the bible warns us that if anybody comes to preach another gospel "wether it be from an angel" do not accept it, what am I suppose to understand by this? is this not a perfect prophecy about islam?

Good question.
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethood ... mproph.htm

If you are unable to extract and express the relevant information from your links I see no point in this debate.

Just read it, ok? Or, stop telling me to stop posting links. If you want to bat them away and block yourself from information, do so, you don't need to tell me.

Have you read the Qur'an. What type of malicious "spirit" would transmit absolute submission to God, paying obligatory alms, fasting, self-sacrifice and warn of the Devil (who is described as the worst of creation).

If you want to be logical, you'd think to yourself that Jesus (pbuh) DID in fact preach that anyone who comes with a different gospel should not be believed. However, people retained this teaching but changed everything else, thus trapping everyone into the new belief because "whoever says anything different is wrong". In fact, Jesus and Muhammad were both Messengers of God with the same message, so Muhammad didn't bring a different gospel and following him would be following Jesus. The person who brought the different gospel and sealed it with "and whoever says anything different is wrong" are the Trinitarians and those who conjectured about Jesus' theological teachings.

It certainly isn't a prophecy about Islam, it's one of the sadder ironies though, because it's such a theological trap.

How do I know a command from all these people or followers from all these people is from God, because they give charity and do good works?

Awesome question, bro. You HAVE to look at the signs they bring. What miracles did they have to show that they were sent by God. I'll tell you one of the most important things you need to know: if you want to be sure that Muhammad (pbuh) is the messenger of God and that Islam is the religion in the sight of God and was the religion of all the Messengers, study the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the living Miracle. No other religion brings with it anything like the Qur'an. Then all you need to do once you've established it's miraculousness is study the life of the Prophet to see his exemplary character.

What in my point don't you understand? instead of A B C D we have C D A B it simply is not chronological sense, sura A indeed may make some logical sense, and so will B C and D on their own but together they make no chronological sense at all.

If A B C D are each stories, then A B C D are each told in the order in which they happened. However, they are listed as BDCA or something like that. But that's only how they are listed, because it doesn't take a genius to know that Adam and Eve (A for example) came before the story of Cain and Abel (B) which came before the story of Noah which came before the story of Jesus and so on.

exactly how can someone have a discussion with someone who just refers?

On what basis can we have a discussion? If you want to talk you have to start from some shared principle. How am I supposed to debate that the Prophet Muhammad is not "a bad guy" when as far as you're concerned in your sources he IS. There's only one historical truth and I've led you to it, if you choose to stick with polemics that's the choice you've made and you will be held accountable for it, but I can't hold your hand if you want to stick with your sources as truth and mine as "apologetic" lies. Now if you want to talk about something you found in my links, or my version of history, that's great. But if you're still deciding who to believe, this is not something I can help you with except for giving you a reliable version of the truth, which is what I do with links.

I have seen several hadiths that Mohammed constantly led folks to loot pagan caravans, would you care to cite the hadiths that show he was being persecuted?

If you refer me to a website I shall consider this conversation over after 5 posts of asking for the same request I know when I am talking to a brick wall.

So now you disbelieve that Muslims were persecuted? That's a new one. If you know anything about early Islamic history you'd know how badly the Muslims were being tortured. But fair enough, if you don't want any links, and want some references, I hope you have your Sirat al Rasool handy. In fact, go read any biography of the Prophet for references, and this includes Christian accounts since they've never denied how badly the Muslims were tortured. You remind me of the atheists that deny that Jesus even existed.

I need not quote anymore, this is a man that feels he is entitled to 1/5th of the spoil, even if they involved very pretty jewish and christian married women where exactly is anything I have quoted contradicted in the hadiths and the koran? considering he had an estimated 23 wives and concubines maybe that was where all the money went to, just because Buddha, or Hare krishna's chose to be poor doesn't make their message any more coming from God than Mohammed's.

So you showed me the hadiths that say that 1/5 of the spoils were to be allocated to the Prophet. So show me the hadiths that tell us where the money went? Where did the Prophet live? What did he wear? What did he own? 1/5 of the spoils were to be allocated to him and by him, but did that mean he kept it? So bring us the hadiths that tell us what happened to the money, as well as the hadiths which number his 23 wives and concubines you said?

What exactly do you mean by a "pagan devotional exercise" devotion to what pagan symol?

Devotional exercise, prayer, worship, there's little difference in meaning. Did the pagans used to perform worship, yes, to their idols. What you're saying is that the Prophet ALSO used to "perform worship". Nice logical connection.

also please comment what you think the ishaq 327 means.


and where is it contradicted in the hadiths or koran?

It doesn't take much thought to realise "lo, allah is forgiving and merciful" makes no sense with the preceding utterings in this sura, compare it with what Ishaq says regardless of the immoral message it makes more logical sense, also please comment what you think the ishaq 327 means.

Oh are you asking why after those statements it says "Lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful.'"? That's how the Qur'an is throughout, after practically every change in subject.

What do I personally think ishaaq 327 means? I'd refer to the exegesis where it says that the spoils of war have been made lawful, otherwise it would be a grave sin to keep it.

(Were it not a previous ordainment from Allah, a severe torment would have touched you for what you took).''

(So enjoy what you have gotten of booty in war, lawful and good).''

This crap sounds like the kind of laws the NAZIS imposed on the Jews!
We can agree that the Nazis were evil.
Why not Omar and his evil laws?

Comparing the Islamic State to the Nazis'? Ok this conversation has degenerated irreparably. What does one say when they are compared to Nazis? Wow.

But Muhammed at many times was offensive!

The Prophet only did things by the leave of God, and by that time, the pagans had already formally waged war on the Muslims.

What would you do if you're a Persian or Jew and you see an army of Muslims ready to attack your village, and they invade and destroy your temple and press you to convert to their religion. Would you convert or fight?
Who is the agressor? Who is the enemy of God?
The opressed "infidel" whose religion and culture is suppressed?
Or the agressive army seeking to spread their faith with swords and browbeating?

Except that's not lawful and didn't happen nor is it even allowed.

Many Christians in Iraq have recieved death threats from Shiites saying they must convert to ISalm or be killed and raped.
I pray no more Islamic States will be created because the success of Satan will only increase.

Well those Shiites are in error then. Don't confuse what Muslims THINK is right with what is actually prescribed in Islam.

Also, there are currently no Islamic states on Earth, regardless to what people think.

The antichrist is a Jew?
Does that sound somewhat anti-Semetic?

Iran certainly has a really ancient Jewish community, how old do you suppose?

The anti-Christ is obviously not a Jew if he calls for his own religion and claims to be god. But he does come from among the Jewish community in that area and "jewish" is an ethnicity in as much as it is a religion. So no, he's not Jewish by religion.

Iran/Iraq's Jewish community is pretty old.

Why, what sorts of things could be worse than the antichrist?

The entire world being overrun by disbelievers and immorality, as opposed to having SOME believers left in the world.

Peace