Christian/Muslim Threadsa must readGuess it makes perfect logical sense to reveal a sura that your religion has been perfected but then reveal another verse to attach to a completely different sura, but the religion was complete in the previous sura, are you aware sura 9 and sura 110 succeed sura 5 yes or no? [/quote] The Verse was not abrogated, it is rather a prophetic ruling not mentioned in the Quran. The Hadith provided which claims that Omar complained about not seeing this verse in the Quran is forged. One of the narrators is known for forging thousands of Hadiths, which is of course a perfect a pleasant Hadiths for those who want to discredit Islam, but what's ironic is that when they are faced with forged haidths they believe them and when faced with authentic hadiths they don't? AT least with the Haidths we have a certification criteria, unlike your Gospels, which is mostly cut-paste material, there is no way in hell you can validate the truth in them. ALl you can do with such Gospels is believe in their inspiration which is of course highly doubted since, every single new version of the Bible produces new versions, with deleted verses. The problem with your logic is that you fail to provide how many of those Memorizers died. Well, if yopu bothered yourself and read the other traditions you would see that the people who collected the Quran were themselves memriers of the whole Quran. There were hundreds of Memorizers, some of them were killed but many survived. One thing you fail to understand about the Quran is that the Quran is more like an oral text, the miracle in the Quran is when hearing it, many knew it by heart and when it was collected, it was collected from the written materials they had and then they verified them by two witnesses. Both oral traditions and written traditions preserved the Quran, you choose not to want to believe that, well this is your problem. Just because he is unaware of some of the facts that you probably know doesn't mean he has a weak argument. Maybe, he provided the Links to save him some time replying to your flase alegations, how do you know? By the way, Tafsir means explaining the text of the Quran, it has nothing to with with the history of the Quran. I suggest you learn those phrases well. Muhammad -pbuh- did not marry Aisha at a young age. I will show you, In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly misreported in the narratives of the incident. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are: Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three. It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy-one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medinah for seventy-one years. Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 - 51). Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly (Vol. 4, pg. 301 - 302). According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an , was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th Surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not even only an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why should we not accept this narrative to be more accurate. According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden upon them. According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in the 73rd year after hijrah[2] when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in the 73rd year after hijrah, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra) - if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage. Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she most likely got married. According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not even have been born during the first year of Islam. Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr (ra) planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam. Subsequently, his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage. According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady". According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage. These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage. In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated. Because you fail to understand the science of Hadith, such a statement is made. I advice you to make a productive research about the science of Hadith before you make such statements. It reflects bad on you and show ignorance. Your own Bible contains what has long been declared heresy by your church friend. For the LORD is the savior of everyone, especially the ones who believe. Such a statement is a big heresy in your Bible. As a matter of fact, this agrees with the OT theology concerning hell. Besides, did you bother to read the book of Joshua and how every single leving being had to be killed including children? Or do you love to use double standards? I wil answer it for him. It is being taken out of context. Read the whole verses first: [4] Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you. These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your morality, by not committing adultery. Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise. [4] Those among you who cannot afford to marry free believing women, may marry believing slave women. GOD knows best about your belief, and you are equal to one another, as far as belief is concerned. You shall obtain permission from their guardians before you marry them, and pay them their due dowry equitably. They shall maintain moral behavior, by not committing adultery. Once they are freed through marriage, if they commit adultery, their punishment shall be half of that for the free women. Marrying a slave shall be a last resort for those unable to wait. To be patient is better for you. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful. Muslims are to marry those slaves of theirs. Need more information about slavery in Islam? 2:221 "Do not marry unbelieving women (idolaters), until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do (but) beckon you to the Fire. But God beckons by His Grace to the Garden (of bliss) and forgiveness, and makes His Signs clear to mankind: That they may celebrate His praise." 2:177 "It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness to believe in God and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the God-fearing." 24:31 "And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss." Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Food, Meals, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 286)" "Zadhan reported that Ibn Umar called his slave and he found the marks (of beating) upon his back. He said to him: I have caused you pain. He said: No. But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him, then expiation for it is that he should set him free. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4079)" "Abu Mas'ud reported that he had been beating his slave and he had been saying: "I seek refuge with Allah, but he continued beating him, whereupon he said: I seek refuge with Allah's Messenger, and he spared him. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: By Allah, God has more dominance over you than you have over him (the slave). He said that he set him free. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters, but made no mention of (these words) of his: I seek refuge with Allah, I seek refuge with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4089)" How about now you turn to your OT and see how slaves are to be treated?Or do you like double standards. Islam is also about freeing slaves, as can be seen from the above verses. I can can more verses from the Quran asking to always free slaves. Another gross mistranslation of the word "Sala". It does not explicitly means "God prays for", like in "God is praying to Muhammad". The last thing we need is these people teaching us our own language. I don't really need to continue this. I don't normally post unless something important, but remember this. Most of you also PARROT what other sites say. You do not understand what TAFSIR means nor understand anything about HADITHS. You also apply double standards, you forget your own book and judge the Quran, this is the wrong appraoch. Did not Solomon, someone who God spoke with him and declared him a begotten son of God, marry more than a 100?Why use double standards? Your lack of understanding of the History of Islam, along with the sites you keep reading over and over, provide to you such an ignorant understanding of the many issues. The science of the Hadith can be creticized and it is being creticized until this day. There are hundreds of untranslated books who speak about every single narrator, Isnad, Matn and all that stuff. Such material is never available online, so people like you, pick Hadiths not knowing what they are quoting and make their own conclusions about them. I have shown you one case concerning the age of Aisha, I am sure you will not accept such answer, because your brain is just set on one course which will not change. To be honest, the science of the Hadith can be used to verify what and what is not true, where on the other hand, if we are to check your Gospels, there is no way one can verify what Jesus really said, the only defense you would have at that point is "inspiration". I will show you a very simple example: Jesus in Acts orderd his desciples to preach the Gospel to the whole world, anyway if you keep reading through Acts, you will see that his own desciples disagreed on preaching the Gospel to the whole world, now I ask, if Jesus said that why did they dispute? Only logical explanation is that he never said that in the first place. Such can be verified when we read the Gospel of Matthew 28:" 16 The eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had ordered them. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped, but they doubted. 18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, The phrase b]baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit[/b] does not exist in the older manuscripts. The oldest manuscripts say In my name. This could also be verfied by seeing what the early fathers of the church quoted Eusebius has it as "baptizing them in my name" Now such a thing raises doubt on the whole verses, we clearly see how alteration was made. Such an inspiration I guess right? You can not prove what was said by Jesus or not, period. On the other hand, with the science of the Hadiths, WE CAN, and all you do is parrot what your sites say anyway. You quoting such Hadiths is rather like us quoting the apocryphal books you have to prove that Jesus was not crucified. |
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