humble_guest wrote: Please specify how this relates to chronology it simply states a large part of the koran maybe lost, how do you get that the large part implies chronology
First of all, did you read the other hadiths I gave you in the links? Second of all, yes, in the hypothetical situation posed in the hadith, the fear was that so many Muslims would die that there would not be enough full memorizers to verify its transmission. (If you read about what the most authenticated form of transmission is, you'd know how many need to authenticate it and from however many different areas and so on)
Tell us when sahih Bukhari and sahih muslim started their hadith collection how long after the death of Mohammed and indeed the completion of the koran did they start their collection? who started the chain of transmission and the science of hadith?
In other words you have conflicting hadiths and you chose to believe which ever one makes logical sense to you so whenever you find something in islam that contradicts itself you just interpret it as you want to and still believe it comes from God without looking at the alternative scenario that hold on why would God and his apostle/followers contradict themselves, you also mention it was equally authentic and there I was thinking you were going to say it was a weak hadith.
Choose? Are you reading ANY of the links I'm posting? How are you ever going to understand what happened if you're basing this whole conversation on what you only think is reliable info?
I stand by my original point, read your posts and see where you claim this hadith is a weak hadith and it may not be authentic, in other words you chose what you want to believe.
In other words you pick and chose which part you believe in and claim to be the more knowledgeable, that website basically says ask an iman who knows better, with that mind set you can justify any islamic belief just find an iman to agree with you.
It's always better to ask a scholar who's memorized the Qur'an and hundreds of thousands of hadiths than to flip open a Sahih Muslim book of hadith and start making your own interpretations.
Wait a minute isn't this religion suppose to be simple enough a child is able to understand?
what happens when several scholars who have memorised the quran conflict in interpretation what do you do then?
please don't refer me to a link just answer the question in your own words.
Put yourself in the jew or christian shoes for a second and imagine how ridiculous your stance is that the pagan arabs really had the true message of God, even though they were idolaters. (Also notice how I didn't refer you to a 17 page document on a website, with 90% of data completely irrelevant to the topic in hand, is this your idea of discussion to just refer the opposition to a website link, what is the point of a discussion if all you do is refer to a mass document completely irrelevant to the topic)
Because people have dealt with these issues thoroughly and academically.
Sources please.
Unless you enjoy trading baseless allegations and having conversations with me without ever gaining any new information, then I suggest you sit down and do some reading, as much as possible.
If you chose to conduct a conversation by simply saying go read this muslim apologist website, you do realise there are also counter arguments against your websites, I would like to know what you know about islam and how you justify it, I have read your links and I have also read links that counter what your links say, I am trying a different alternative, anyody can create a website and claim whatever they want I want you to apply simple logic based on the religious scripture we have.
so Jesus was put to death because He was about to expose the corruption in the torah denying the divine unity and return the jews to the mosaic laws as revealed to Moses
He wasn't put to death, though this was the intention. Also, he wasn't just ABOUT to expose, he DID. The early Unitarian followers of Jesus (pbuh) are a testament to this, they all lived by the Mosaic laws
.
I have noticed you spout about unitarians, lets reason this out so the early unitarians believed in the mosaic law, like the jews so why isn't the muslim practicing mosaic law?
Where is your evidence that the arabian peninsula was full of these unitarians, the unitarians simply did not have any religious creed and denied the virgin birth of Jesus (bear that in mind the next time you mention unitarian followers of Jesus), I have noticed how you reiterate about these phantom unitarians that followed the teachings of Jesus, where were they? a few sentences please, don't refer me to a link just answer the question.
Please elaborate on the non-prophetic abrogations in judaism and christianity.
How many laws do Jews and Christians still follow even from what is contained in their Scriptures. I don't even mean regular people, how many do Rabbis and Priests say are still laws that they should live by?
The christian has no hold on what the jews or anybody choses to believe, since you obviously do not understand christianity I wouldn't expect you to know why christians no longer follow mosaic law.
I am asking you to apply some logical sense to this sura I am not asking you to refer me to an islamic apologist website with mass produced irrelevant material, look at the above sura and ask yourself if someone was being asked a lot of questions and he just wanted to be left alone, doesn't it look like he just made it up?. Think, this is for all mankind what on earth does this command about not raising your voice above the voice of the prophet have to do with a message for all mankind?
You should have read the link because it answered your question on shifts from first to third person and so on. In addition, many verses were revealed specific to the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), especially ones about the Hypocrites in the community, the battles with the pagans, and so on. Does this one verse apply to humanity today? Obviously not. In fact, that's one thing many don't understand, they pick a verse about the battles with the pagans and say "see, this is what Muslims are commanded to do all day long"
I fail to see what your response has to do with my question, notice how you suddenly claimed it answered my previous post of shifts from first to third person, which is not even the question I was asking, please focus on the question.
Show me one prophecy in your koran.
Sigh
I asked you to give me a prophecy from the
koran (not hadith), if I wanted to get a link for the prophecies I could have done it myself, I asked you to give me the prophecies for a reason, you see the prophecies are not that many I suspect you can count them on one hand, and I wanted you to show us those prophecies for discussion, not refer me to a website link.
BTW I could show you a link that shows your roman defeat of the byzantines is not a prophecy. Please give me another prophecy from your koran, don't give me link just print the sura and the historical prophecy.
Let me guess you are going to tell me about bacteriophages and how they conflict with other pathogens, please explain how this or indeed whatever is in the wing pouches of flies will have the cure for a disease that you have to dip in the fly in your soup, please don't refer me to a website just tell me what you know. (BTW the fact that you are willing to justify this stupidity of a hadith tells me I am dealing with a fundy, you should have stuck with your usual stance that is it a weak hadith, if you are going to take offence at me calling that hadith stupid I ask you to ask any health care worker what they suggest about dipping flies in your soup and see what they will think of you)
I'm not going to make conjectures because I'm not that familiar with biology but I'm also not going to say a hadith is weak just because I'm not sure about it. Also, I think it's clear that if the hadith is understood figuratively, as many regarding prophecies ought to be, it's impressive.
Notice how you switch your tone first you were about to defend the hadith that flies have antidote and poison under their wing pouches but now you say it's figurative? It is figurative in what way?, please elaborate there is no need to refer me to a website, just elaborate it here.
A prophecy that means in the last days muslim will kill jews? what relevance does that hadith have to do with Jesus?
The anti-Christ precedes Jesus (pbuh) and MANY people mistake the anti-Christ to be the Messiah (as this is one of his claims). The followers of the anti-Christ fight against those who follow Jesus (pbuh) when he returns, until Jesus (pbuh) destroys the anti-Christ.
www.jesuswillreturn.com
You do realise this could have been plagiarised from christianity?
How convenient, you know with such thinking you can basically justify anything you want, I can claim that baal is the one true god and everybody else corrupted his one true teaching or zoroaster or ashura mazda or mithra.
If you want to blinder yourself from everything else that revelation states, then yes, you COULD claim that. I wouldn't base my life on that, though.
How do you determine what is revelation from God and what is revelation from the devil, if you want to claim your religion holds the true message and all others have been corrupted with no archaelogical backup of your statements of any kind, why should anybody believe you?
I read that website, I compared it to what the hadiths say, reading that website you get the impression that the angel cuddled him, "held him close to him lightly" is not implied in any way shape or form by the hadiths, does that make any sense?, he cuddled him to the point that he couldn't breathe and thought he was going to die, do you honestly think people would like to jump off a cliff after being cuddled three times?.
Good, keep reading:
As apologetical websites go this is one of the worst I have seen.
I suggest you do not refer to that website to back up your view that is the same website the authors claim Mohammed was in perfect health throughout his life, while a hadith narrated by Aisha says no one was as sick as the prophet.
You are giving more credit than what is due, just answer this question did Mohammed have access to jewish scriptures? yes or no
Depends on when in his life you're talking about, but yes, it's clearly not impossible that the Jewish tribes around Medina carried a Torah around with them.
We have finally made some progress in our discussion, now ask yourself why Mohammed asked Zaid, the final collector of the koran to study the book of the people of the book.
I have read the details of many of the stories, how the pagan arabs and indeed many of the muslims were shocked that mohammed wanted to marry zaid's wife, and the ridiculousness of God blessing the 'lust' of a man for his son's wife and making sure his prophet got the wife of his son, it is just plain ridiculous to think that a God who punished David for adultery to the point that the sword never left his home would make sure mohammed obtained his adopted son's wife, a 6 year old girl " not yet ready for consumation" and steal, loot from hard working pagan businessmen
his adopted son's wife, a 6 year old girl
I think you're confusing her with Ayesha (ra)…
No, I am well aware of Zainab, Aisha, Raynahyah, Safiyah, Mary and others, notice the comma.
and steal, loot from hard working pagan businessmen
Or follow the command of God regarding peoples who were trying to end the true religion in the sight of God and murder His Prophet.
I suggest you read your hadiths Mohammed had conducted raids against the pagan businessmen some 70+ times without retaliation, they had had enough, and had come to bring him to justice.
But this all depends on whether or not you want to believe. You remind me of an atheist who refused to believe in God because he said that God would never ask Abraham to kill his own son. All I can say is that the creation has no right upon the Creator. Only an arrogant person would ever think otherwise, and we all know where arrogance leads.