What you need to understand is that Jesus didn't give us a written revelation, but a living revelation. He was the revelation and His word was by mouth and by action.

Yes I know that. What vexes me is why wasn’t anyone furiously writing everything that Jesus said and did down while he was still on Earth? Why leave tens of years (I’d like to see your evidence that it was in ~50AD) of doubt until any written account was endeavored?

Not great myths an stories don't form about a person in a few decades, but it takes centuries for myths to form about someone. The Gospels are not fictious books of myths!

Nobody said anything about frivolous myths and stories. For one thing, there would be no need to make up myths or anything like that because the society at the time was highly philosophized with strong pagan elements. Second of all, the virgin birth of Jesus (pbuh) was a powerful, powerful miracle which not many understood. Add that to the ambiguity surrounding the events of the alleged crucifixion and you have A LOT of questions which Jesus is no longer present to answer. This is the danger of having a Scripture be written AFTER the disappearance of the Messenger, because the Messenger never had a chance to authorize what was said and verify it. The most reliable Scripture is written during the life of the messenger, authenticated by him, and transmitted in that way to the present day.

If you can't do this, then you are a hypocrite because the Quran contains accounts that are fallacious myths until otherwise proven true.

I really want you to understand this. This isn’t about taking as true whichever version of the story was CLOSEST to the events. It’s about taking as truth ALL divine revelation. You need to carefully study the Qur’an to realize why people believed it was divine before even reading what it contains, simply because of how it was revealed and the nature of its transmission. When you have the word of God tell you how the Universe was created, even if that’s millions or billions of years later, you hold the Truth regardless of time. You think the Bible holds a more accurate account simply because it was written earlier? Would you say that Zoroastrian Scripture which describes fantastic, mythical ways in which the Universe was created is more accurate than the Torah? Or do you take the latter as Truth because you know it’s divinely revealed?

God promises us that He protects His Word.

God does protect his word. God insures that people have been worshipping Him and submitting to him Alone since the time of Adam. The Message has always been preserved, but if people don’t guard their Scriptures as rigorously as they’re supposed to, they devise a great sin because they are being negligent. They will lose or distort the message while others still carry it.

It's a mixture of ancient evidence(prophectic and some historical) and faith in God that the Gospel we have today is the true authentic life of Jesus.

In matters of religion you can’t leave ANYTHING to doubt. The FIRST thing you should do when you choose to believe in God and live your life according to His Will is to ask yourself “how do I know that I’m reading the word of God”. You have to use your intellect and make sure that the words you are reading came out of a Prophet’s mouth. Any ounce of doubt means that one is being seriously misled.

And if the Gospel was corript, seems to flaky that Allah would wait 640 years to give the Quran. He'd want to prevent any corrupt doctrine from spreading.

Believer, I seriously want you to read the book I’ve suggested for this exact reason. Most people think that people have been believing in the Trinity for 570 years and then all of a sudden the QUr’an is revealed. That is absolutely not true. Trinitarian and Unitarian Christians were at war with each other for hundreds of years between Jesus’ revelations and the Qur’an. Haven’t you ever wondered why practically 99% of the Christians of the middle east immediately converted to Islam when it was revealed? It was because they were already Unitarian Christians and the Qur’an fit perfectly with the true doctrine of Jesus they had preserved. There’s so much history here I wish you would just take the time to read the book for a clear perspective.

The Quran has not proven to be the Word of God, that would not make logical sense, and it contains too many flaky stories, and has nothing written that humans beings couldn't have written.

Bro, I wish you’d make a serious effort to study the Qur’an because otherwise I think you’re being misled by people who want nothing more than to leave you in darkness. Nothing can be PROVEN to be the word of God, but the Qur’an is by far the best preserved and most miraculous of all Scriptures. Its revelations are evaluated against this criteria, not whether you think they are flaky. And most definitely if you study how it was revealed you would know that an unlettered man (and I contend even a literate and learned man) could not have produced such a work in however many years, with all its eloquence, consistency, prophecy, and miracles.

To top it off, Islam is the only religion that directly denies Chrisain doctrine. Seems to have been created to counteract Christianity.

That’s not true, bro. The only major difference between Islam and Christianity is the Trinity and Salvation. Wouldn’t you agree that Islam and Judaism are much closer about the Divine Unity and Salvation than is Christianity and Judaism?

Suppose for a minute that Chistianity is true, it would makse sense that Satan would devise a way to counteract Christianity, God's truth.

Absolutely man, and look at how many deviant faiths there exist after Christianity AND Islam that undermine both of their messages. However, God always demands of his worshippers that they use their intellect. Your perspective is “well the Bible says that anyone who doesn’t agree with the Bible is bringing a false Gospel from Satan” But you first have to consider whether the Bible itself did not accurately transmit Jesus’ teachings and YET had the disclaimer “anyone who doesn’t agree with the Bible is bringing a false Gospel from Satan” then you have people locked in a faith obliviously batting away true guidance just because it doesn’t match their idea. Before you base your life on a text, you have to test it to verify it is from God. You can’t just pick up what your parents picked up and follow it because it says “everything else is false”. Everyone is accountable for putting in an effort to know what they are reading and what they COULD be reading. And to be honest with you, you have a tragically warped account of the Qur’an because you’ve been collecting libelous accusations about it from all the apologetic work you’ve been reading. Instead of doing objective analysis, you’re just building an insurmountable wall of spurious bias against it.

Also, the NT warns us alot about false prophets that deny Jesus as the Son, and about Satan being capable of appearing as an angel of light, and even angels that give revelation contradicting the Gospel, they are accursed.
There are things you must serioulsly consider before you can say the Quran is the Word of God.

Of course I’ve considered this! Do you know how many religions have emerged after Islam? Everyone needs to guard the truth from false prophets and deviation, that’s a given. But the definition of “deviation” can’t just be “anything other than what I’m reading”. I believe in the Qur’an because I am sure it is revelation, not just because it warns believers to guard against deviance and other false prophets because EVERY faith will warn against that. You should do the same and think critically and logically. Anyone can add a disclaimer “and anything else that is said is false” in fact everyone’s scripture says that. So you first have to know for sure that YOU in fact are holding the Truth to begin with.

Nowhere does it say the Messiah is just a messenger, but a great King, and the Redeemer. Even the word "messiah" does not match with "messenger". Obviously Christ bright us a message, his holy teachings, but He is far from being just a messenger.

But this is exactly what people starting to think AFTER Jesus (pbuh) left the Earth. They couldn’t handle the virgin birth as MERELY a miracle, and when they were unsure about the events of the crucifixion they were overwhelmed and wanted to explain it theologically. You have to know what Jesus (pbuh) said about God for sure, you have to know how Jesus spoke, lived, worshipped and how everyone living around him did these things while he was on earth. You can’t rely on a Scripture he had never seen before, written years after he was gone, he had to have witnessed it to make sure it contained absolutely ZERO deviance.

"Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I [am] the first, and I [am] the last; and beside me [there is] no God." Isaiah 44:6

Bro, please read the Jewish interpretation for that text. It seems that everyone is using the ambiguous pronouns to connote what they want.

I see Jewish thought has influenced you.

No I’m just showing you what the other interpretation is. And who best to interpret it than a Jewish counterpart. I’m in no position to interpret it.

No mortal man can sit as the right hand of the Almighty!
The image of the Son sitting at the right hand of the Father is consistent with Pslam 110:1 and also with the abover verse I gave you.

But did you read the alternative interpretations of those verses? Their claims go all the way down to incorrect translations.

Jesus was born of a virgin (indicative that He was preexistent and transcended to earth rather than being craeted by the sex cells of humans.) and Jesus will come back as Judgement! Jesus is far from being another messenger, let alone a man!

Only God can explain the miracle of the virgin birth to mankind as revelation. One shouldn’t deduce that the virgin birth meant preexistence if God did not reveal it so. The virgin birth is one of the most powerful signs of the coming of the Messiah, it did not indicate of itself any preexistence. Adam was created without a mother or father. Eve was created without a mother. Jesus was created without a father. These are all miracles of creation and signs, but men have interpreted more into that than God has revealed.

See, Islam denys this, but leaves alot unnacounted for.

Actually if you read the book it talks a lot about Jesus in the hadith texts, stories you would be most interested to read. Also, the QUr’an reveals the most critical element about faith relating to Jesus. He is the Messiah, Messenger, but is not to be worshipped.

Islam's depiction of Jesus is not realistic when you look at what all of the prophets have said, and even your beliefs about the virgin birth and jusgement...makes you wonder who Jesus really was.

Do me a favor and read the book and then tell me if the Islamic version doesn’t make sense. I’m sure all your questions and concerns and information gaps will be filled, but I can’t do that in less than 300 pages of text.

Still, you're only escaping by trying to make it seem as if I'm angry but in fact you are the one that is angry You don't even greet me anymore like you used to

Sorry bro, peace to you always,

and in order to know that it is not factual and just fiction is to read the entire bible from end to end and not depend upon sites that will "sway" your brain into thinking one thing or the other.

I agree there’s a lot of propaganda out there. But here’s the key. Before you even open up a Scripture to read it, you have to know where it came from, otherwise you are pitting the words of God against the words of men and then choosing which you like best. You can just line up ALL the supposed scriptures of the world and then choose your favorite. Scripture has to have signs to show that it is the word of God, it must come from the mouth of the messenger, it can’t be broken in its transmission. Even before you get to theological content, what prophecies does it contain? What internal miracles and eloquence?

You also have to take into consideration if he was really unlettered to begin with A merchant is unlettered????? What about the stories about him buying the scriptures from the jews back in his time? Why did he need to "buy" scriptures when the angel gabriel was supposed to give him the true scripture of God?

Be careful that you rely only on true historical accounts and not just ones written to misguide you. If you are sincere, read this:

http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethood ... _intro.htm

Also, the thing about the QUr’an is that it not only could not have been written by an unlettered man, it’s eloquence surpasses even the most eloquent men. It’s miraculous even if you DON’T believe that the Prophet (pbuh) was unlettered. But don’t just reduce it to its language, think of its internalized miracles.

No. 65 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Once the Prophet wrote a letter or had an idea of writing a letter. The Prophet was told that they (rulers) would not read letters unless they were sealed. So the Prophet got a silver ring made with "Muhammad Allah's Apostle" engraved on it. As if I were just observing its white glitter in the hand of the Prophet

No. 4214 - Narrated 'Aisha:

When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, the Prophet read them in the Mosque and prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors. "If the debtor is in difficulty, grant him time till it is easy for him to repay.." (2.280)
Narrated 'Aisha: When the last Verses of Surat-al-Baqara were revealed, Allah's Apostle stood up and recited them before us and then prohibited the trade of alcoholic liquors.

So much for the unlettered prophet.

The Prophet always had his companions draft letters and treaties for him. The nature of the Arabic language is very broad with terms like “write” and “read”. For example, the first hadith you presented could just as easily mean “dictated” and when you consider the CONTEXT of the Prophet’s (pbuh) life, that becomes more evident. Because think about what you’re saying, the claim that he was unlettered isn’t new, it was stated during his lifetime. You think he would be openly writing things if according to you he was only purporting to be unlettered?

And seriously, in the second example “read” means “recited”. Not only means, it is the same word. If hundreds had memorized the Qur’an during the time of the Prophet, don’t you think the Prophet himself would be foremost among them? You think he would need it written down to read it? Think about that.

Sura 2 41
YUSUFALI: And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

“The point to be noted here is that from the very beginning of mankind on earth, Allah has been sending His prophets to guide humanity along the Right Path. Whenever the people deviated from Divine Guidance, prophets came to correct them and lead them back to the Path of Allah. Thus after the time of Moses, when the Children of Israel distorted the Divine Message, many prophets came to them, of whom the most important was Jesus the Messiah.

In fact, the coming of Jesus had been clearly foretold and the Jews ought to have believed in him and followed him when he came. But selfish obstinacy prevented most of them from receiving the Messiah when he appeared; they ridiculed him and sought to crucify him. The Holy Qur’an narrates how Allah Almighty saved Jesus from an accursed death on the cross. Obviously the Jews who rejected Jesus were transgressors who broke God’s covenant and forfeited the special favor of God.”

The Jews were profiting from their way of life and refused to change even when Jesus (pbuh) came to correct their faiths and reestablish the Mosaic Laws as they were revealed. Instead, the Jews (especially the elite) bartered Truth for exclusive rights to interpretation and so on.

Oh..ok
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: I heard the Prophet saying. "Evil omen is in three things: The horse, the woman and the house." Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 52, Number 110

So the religion that states that women are considered "equal" are also considered "evil omen" too? LOL why can't it be found in men too since this is supposed to be a religion of equality? LOL Sorry...couldn't help it.. LOL . Oh I forgot to list the part that says that women are less intelligent than men as well. Are you sure a real prophet would say such things? I think Dr. Rice would disagree with such statements.

Bro, I hope you know that not all hadiths are of the same authenticity! There were a lot of disbelievers who purposely attributed sayings to the Prophet to ridicule him and divert the faiths of believers. They like yourself thought this amusing. So whenever you present a hadith, you also have to present it’s authenticity rating. This is based on whether it has a solid and large transmission of reliable persons going all the way back to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). THEN you have to check the biographies of each person to make sure they are reliable and don’t have a history of malice against Islam or people in general or even senility. THEN you have to note whether there are ever any broken links in the chain. Then you have to note how many chains have transmitted the same hadith. The science of hadith is too deep to go into, but I think the reason you find many hadiths amusing is exactly because many ARE frivolous and slanderous plagiarisms by the enemies of Islam. Do you understand this or should I expand more on the topic? Not all hadiths have the same weight, some we know were certainly words of the Prophet, and some are obviously plagiarism simply because of who transmitted them and how. This is where most apologetics get their hadiths and enjoy themselves, oblivious to the fact that Muslims regard much of the same hadiths as plagiarisms.

Verily in cattle, there is lesson for you. We give you to drink of what is inside their bellies coming from a conjunction between the contents of the intestine and blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it.(16:66)

“The constituents of milk are secreted by the mammary glands. These are nourished, as it were, by the product of food digestion brought to them via the bloodstream. Blood therefore is the collecter and conductor of what has been extracted from food, and it brings nutrition to the mammary glands, the producers of milk, as it does to any organ.

It was totally unknown at the time of the Prophet and has been understood only in recent times.“

http://www.jalyat.net/productofmilk.htm

Science has already shown that there is no such barrier. Actually you don't even need science for this. Just go to the rivers and see for yourself.

I don’t know how much you know about marine biology, but have you ever research the salinity/pH of different but adjacent bodies of water? For example, the Meditarranean Sea connects to the Atlantic, and yet they have two entirely different statistical water contents which never mix. You can quite literally take your meter and go through a few meters across where the Med. And the Atlantic meat and it will change back and forth. However, each body of water retains its molality and other stats. Want some more info on that?

http://www.jalyat.net/sea.htm
http://www.jalyat.net/river.htm

It's funny how most people can't even memorize a sentence much along an entire book. I wonder why this was done? A lie on top of a lie on top of another lie starts to make sense and become truth? I don't think so.

Don’t allow your heart to be thick with contempt and disbelief bro, to this day Muslims memorize the entire Qur’an. At the time of its initial transmission it was memorized by thousands in different reaches of the Muslim world to ensure that no collusion was even possible. Not only that, but it was simultaneously recorded. No other Scripture in the world was so meticulously guarded against corruption.

If you want me to question and look at gob, why not look at the epistil of Barnabas? Why is it that it's so much different from the gob? And also did you read up on the authenticity of this work? Why is it that it seems to quote some of the people from the Middle ages and have alot of knowledge about the middle ages and not the times they are supposed to be talking about [the time of Jesus]?

Bushmaster has decided [for now] to check the book I’ve suggested at the beginning of this thread out. I think you should do the same. You can read the 50 some pages on the GoB and epistle and tell me what you think.

However, there is such a thing as the spiritual realm which most have not come in contact with and that's the spirit of God. Until you really get to know Him, you will never understand His true word. That's the only answer I can honestly give you.

That’s true, but God demands the spiritual as well as the intellectual, otherwise you are just a blind believer. Why do you think so many religions ask their believers to “shut out the mind”? Mostly because they don’t have authentic revelation to back their meditative religions. They can’t reasonably argue that their Scriptures are divine revelation, so they say that you must reach nirvana and then you will be convinced. Interesting that one should first live by Scripture in order to test whether it is authentic…doesn’t seem that the believer has done his part to ensure that he indeed is living by the word of God.

I can't explain the relationship with God I have to you because you may not believe me or you may laugh at me and think that I'm just a brainwashed kid. I can't tell you about the miracles He's done for me and my family because you [or maybe someone else] may say, well it's not Him who had the miracles done but you yourself.

God is Truth. Undoubtedly there are elements of Truth in all religions. I’m sure at the peak of your faithfulness you’ve contemplated the Divine Unity of God and that’s God has blessed you in your life. But God does not withhold his blessings from people in this world based on their beliefs and acts in this world. There are rich and prosperous and happy atheists after all…this world is not yet judged.

I questioned whether or not Jesus was really the Son of God and things like that.

Well, if you’ve firmly decided you never want to be ^^^ there, then you won’t be able to handle the book. But I would call this blind faith. Truth stands clearly above falsehood and you should have no reservations to read anything if you claim to have the Truth. But at least you’ve openly made your decision after I had made the suggestion to you. This is what happens most of the time, people love habitudes more than they love the Truth. They seek comfort in the familiar rather than in the Truth and are averse to change. Anyone who is not willing to change for God does not truly believe in Him.

I've escaped death [due to unexplained circumstances or just my own downfalls and misgivings] many times due to my faith and my trust in my God. My parents have stuggled to raise me and our family. Many times there was not one soul to help us out of our problems, but my parents trusted upon the Lord and that's all we needed. I can't explain how we got the resources we needed, but I know it was through HIM and for that I thank Him graciously and forever.

Thank God.

Peace bro