Liberate wrote:H2O wrote:I am a fundamentalist. I couldnt be a believing muslim if I wasnt a fundamentalist whom follows and believes in the fundamental teachings of The Quran.
Then you are a paedophile supporting human being an insult to the rest of humanity asking everybody to respect this sick beast of a man.
H2O wrote:How do I feel about an older man marrying a young woman at 9-10 ? As long as she is happy and comfortable with that man I am totally in support of it.
Would I marry a woman that age ? Notice I said woman not girl. If the country I lived in permitted it, and the young woman was fond of me and family, she was willing and comfortable with me, yes I would.
Do I get sexual aroused by young girls ? No, as for my age I am more sexually aroused by women older than me.
Then why would I marry such a young woman ? For the well being and longivity of a family for better ties and relationship between mother and children, and, authority.
The meaning of pedophile is inapplicable.
A 60 year old man who fondles and rubs his member against the thigh of a growing little girl not even reached puberty is a truly DISGUSTING mental image, to insult the rest of humanity that this beast is a role model worthy of emulation for all eternity makes any human being sick to his stomach.
Liberate wrote:H2O wrote:If that is what you think then so be it. I already said that I would Nikah a woman of such age, I find nothing wrong with it, as for my purpose for doing it has nothing to do with sex.
Knowing full well that Nikah means to "penetrate... to have sexual intercourse"... do you realise what you just said makes you no different from a paedophile?
Our book expresses Nikah without consummation.
And I have shown you with references from the classical arabic that nikah
means to pierce... to penetrate... to have sexual intercourse you have shown me what exactly? ...nothing
Liberate wrote:H2O wrote:Something must be wrong with you. You ask a question when you already have the answer. Wow man, your really amazing ! The source your quoted tells you that they married after the Hijrah.
Are you sure you even read it?
Did you read this particular bit in the beginning of it?:
It is not clear just when the marriage actually took place
When, not Where ~ which was in Medina whereas when they got married in Medina is not clear.
If the when is not known how do you know the where? How are you so sure they got married in Medina when the hadiths can be ambiguous either way? which I shall show you later on.
Liberate wrote:Tell us exactly what makes you believe the marriage took place pre hijrah or post hijrah? if it's pre hijrah what makes you think Mohammed didn't consumate the marriage with a pre-pubescent nine year old girl? If it's post-hijrah what makes you think Mohammed didn't consumate the 'marriage' with a nine year old pre-pubescent girl?
We already posted it, go back and read.
Liberate wrote:Let us ask you a simple question when do you think the marriage actually took place? Mecca or Medina? where is your proof? For you to say Aisha had reached puberty you must have a definite logical reason based on those same hadiths, if you believe they all contradict each other what makes you think your unwarranted interpretation out of context isn't also a contradiction, and by your own standards be dismissed?
We already posted it, go back and read.
Liberate wrote:Document A
Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, Book 58, Number 234 Narrated 'Aisha: The prophet engaged (Khitbah) me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).
Mecca is being hinted at that the betrothal/engagement/marriage contract took place.
So why ask me if you already knew ?
Because either way you look at it wether the engagement is in Medina or the engagement is in Mecca there is no contradiction which I shall show you later on.
Liberate wrote:It seems you missed the question entirely, you are saying the one hadith you interpret to mean the marriage took place after the Hijrah contradicts the others that indicate the 'marriage' took place pre-hijrah ..........
The others ? Now you have pluralized what I said. Why cant you quote the post ?
You are using one hadith against all the other hadiths, just one hadith that you interpret out of context against all the others that say the same thing.
Liberate wrote:Where is Mecca or Medina mentioned as the place the marriage/betrothal/engagement took place?...
Where is Mecca or Medina mentioned as the place the marriage/betrothal/engagement took place?
Where is Mecca or Medina mentioned as the place the marriage/betrothal/engagement took place?
Thats your problem you dont pay attention, I already answered your questions
You used one hadith your document E to say it contradicts another hadith your document A, and then used document E as your yardstick against the entire narration of the same events from multiple witnesses which agrees with document A, no court of law would agree with you from one hadith taken out of context against the myriad of others that ascribe to the same thing, this is what a desperate pseudo scholarship is, this is why you cannot find anybody that agrees with you except the team from understanding-islam, modern muslims ashamed of the behaviour of their prophet, which is what this boils down to...simple shame.
H2O wrote:On the other hand you have hadeeths that say, with out the locality, he married her when she was six and then others 9. These hadeeths are taking into perspective with the hadeeths that report they married after the Hijrah.
You must have done Horrible on your SAT for reading IQ comprehension. Hmm maybe you never took an SAT.
Liberate wrote:If Mohammed married Aisha three years after the death of Khadijah and he stayed 'there' for 2 years or so before marrying Aisha 'there' is obviously not referring to Medina but still in Mecca, notice there is no then or subsequent adverb between the two mutually exclusive statements, hence no contradiction with your document A. Seeing your impressive deductive reasoning skills I wonder if this will go over your head.
LLLLLLLLLLOOOLLLLLLLLL !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"There" is refered to Medina not Makkah. He lived all his life in Makkah with Khadijah.
I should have realised it was too much to ask for you to see the logic.
Do you have any Idea what you are saying ? Sound like your confused wanting to interpret something another way that it is not.
It is you who is trying to put a square in a circle, there is no contradiction if you were to look at the big picture, all you are doing is taking one hadith and one hadith alone out of context and taking an incongruous statement to be verbatim and verbatim statements to be incongruous.
1) You stated in the above interpretation quote in bold that Muhammad Married Aisha three years after Khadijah passes away,
yes and...?
2) The Hijrah was three years after Khadijah passed away.
Yes and...?
3) Then on the other hand you stated that he stayed there in Makkah for two years or so before marrying her.
:roll:
Where exactly is the contradiction? You do know when I say he stayed there for two years of so before marrying her I am talking about Aisha?
There is nobody laughing but you; here let me give you a timeline:
Death of Khadija_________3 years later_____ Hijra
Death of Khadija__2 years later
or so engagement with Aisha from Hisham ____________________________Hijra
Why?
When did the Hijra take place?
When did Khadija die?
If you want to take one solitary hadith out of context, equally several hadiths can be taken in context and find no contradiction with the hadith from Hisham
Khadija died some say in 619AD
The hijra took place between 621AD and 622AD
Here are the relevant ahadith:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 165:
Narrated 'Aisha:
I did not feel jealous of any woman as much as I did of Khadija because Allah's Apostle used to mention her very often. He married me after three years of her death, and his Lord (or Gabriel) ordered him to give her the good news of having a palace of Qasab in Paradise.
Sahih Bukhari 5.234
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina
and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj.
This can equally be interpreted that the engagement took place in Mecca.
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4915 and Number 4915
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or
six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version:
Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and
decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah
(peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine.
She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
This can equally be interpreted that the engagement took place in Mecca with the conjunction adverb in bold.
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
This can equally be interpreted that the engagement took place in Mecca with the conjunction adverb in bold.
Tabari VII:7 “The Prophet married Aisha in Mecca three years before
the Hijrah, after the death of Khadija. At the time she was six.”
This can equally be interpreted that the engagement/marriage contract/betrothal took place in Mecca.
So buddy I suggest you take a look at the big picture before you make a fool of yourself laughing like you are standing on solid ground.
Let me give you an analogy since it seems the ones I have shown are a little too complicated for you to digest:
If you were to be engaged to someone in town A and you move to town B, would you be regarded as engaged i) while you are in town A ii) while you are in town B iii) Both? what do you think?
Again I reiterate what your scholars unanimously agree:
In no
version is there any comment made on the disparity
of the ages between Mohammed and Aishah or on the
tender age of the bride who, at the most, could not
have been over ten years old and who was still much
enamoured with her play."
http://www.angelfire.com/ny/dawahpage/aisha.html
You are using the logical fallacies of denying the antecendent, unwarranted contrast, misleading authority (modern muslims ashamed of their prophet's behaviour) and asserting a negative.
Your prophet had sex with Aisha when she was 9 the same hadiths say she was playing with her dolls when the prophet had sex with her at 9 years old, Hisham agrees Bukhari agrees, Muslim agrees, your grand mufti agrees, your classical scholars agree, what on earth do you think you have in your defense? word play? appeal to desperation, appeal to emotion? what?
H2O wrote:Do you also notice who is in the isnad of this hadith compared to the isnad of the other hadiths? who do you think holds more credibility Aisha or Hisham?
We have Quran.
Where does the quran mention that Aisha was at the age of puberty when the child molester molested her? The only indication of Aisha in the koran is when she was accused of adultery and the accusers were flogged (the foundation of flogging the accusers for false accusation relating to adultery in islam) and when she and Hafsa caught your prophet having an affair (rape is more like it) with a slave girl and he needed to threaten them that allah has made it permissible for him to rape her.
relaxjack wrote: Seriously, H2O. I am not sure why you still need to reply to a person (Liberate) whose manners are unbecoming of a Christian. Your replies on the defence of Muhammad (pbuh) are appreciable and I learnt a lot from it. Thank you and hope you will carry out the good work.
salam
Relaxjack I suggest you thank Aburaees for giving you a way out of not replying to the embarassing situation you found yourself in, in your no proof the quran copied from apocrypha thread... which is still awaiting your response.
Your prophet is a paedophile because:
According to the most stringent clinical definition of paedophilia, DSM-IV-TR,
Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviours involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 235:
Narrated 'Aisha:
"...the Prophet said to her (Aisha), 'You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and someone said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done.'"
2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
"that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' ".
As for the prophet, may Allah be pleased with him, thighing his fiancée Aisha, when she was six years of age and not able to consummate the relationship due to her small age. That is why the prophet used to place HIS MALE MEMBER BETWEEN HER THIGHS AND MASSAGE IT SOFTLY, as the prophet had control of his male member not like other men. (Source: http://www.sout-al-haqe.com/pal/musical/mofakhaza.ram) x
Narrated Abu Usaid:
We went out with the Prophet to a garden called Ash-Shaut till we reached two walls between which we sat down. The Prophet said, "Sit here," and went in (the garden). The Jauniyya (a lady from Bani Jaun) had been brought and lodged in a house in a date-palm garden in the home of Umaima bint An-Nu'man bin Sharahil, and her wet nurse was with her. When the Prophet entered upon her, he said to her, "Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift." She said, "Can a princess give herself in marriage to an ordinary man?" The Prophet raised his hand to pat her so that she might become tranquil. She said, "I seek refuge with Allah from you." He said, "You have sought refuge with One Who gives refuge. Then the Prophet came out to us and said, "O Abu Usaid! Give her two white linen dresses to wear and let her go back to her family." Narrated Sahl and Abu Usaid: The Prophet married Umaima bint Sharahil, and when she was brought to him, he stretched his hand towards her. It seemed that she disliked that, whereupon the Prophet ordered Abu Usaid to prepare her and to provide her with two white linen dresses. (See Hadith No. 541). Sahih Bukhari 7:63:182 Which mature princess has a wet nurse? no muslim has yet showed me what was so innocent about this whole debacle
3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.
Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:
Narrated 'Aisha:
" I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)"
Here is a list of Muslim countries and their ages of female consent:
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
Brunei 14; Egypt 18; Indonesia 17; Iran 14; Iraq 18; Jordan 16; Lebanon 15; Malaysia 16; Morocco 15; Syria 13; Tunisia 20; Turkey 15; UAE 18; Uzbekistan 16.
So you see, Muhammad would be prosecuted for child sex abuse (in one form or another) in these Muslim countries.
Cultural relativism is not acceptable for a man whose followers claim is the perfect example of man for all time – which means his deeds must transcend both cultural and temporal boundaries. It might have been okay in the 7th century to have sex with 9-year-olds but not in the 21st century and beyond. Why judge him by modern standards? Because his followers ask him to be: they claim that he is the example of the perfect human being
FOR ALL TIME. PS: Allah should have foreseen how much embarrassment this marriage would cause Muhammad and stopped it.
If you take offense that your al Insan al kamil the perfect human being whose behaviour transcends all time does not match up to the morals of the 1st century christians right up to 21st century christians and the rest of the civilised world whose fault is that?