Loki wrote:
a nine year old little prepubescent girl with a big heavy fifty three year old man, try making a mental image it... this is not normal !
H2O wrote:I just posted a hadeeth showing she was not prepubescent when the Prophet married her.
:
Al-Bukhari Volumn 001, Book 008, Hadith Number 465.
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Narated By 'Aisha : (The wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abu Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Quran)."
H2O wrote: She already reached puberty before they married when she was still living in Makkah before the Hijrah.
Since H2O is so desperate that he has tried repeatedly to pass off this nonsense as if any objective individual bar him really believes in it, I am going to take the liberty to post all the sahih (authentic) hadiths related to this incident:
Sahih Muslim Book 008, Number 3310: 'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old.
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88 Narrated 'Urwa: The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64 Narrated 'Aisha: that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).
Sahih Bukhari 8:151, Narrated 'Aisha: "I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet , and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Sahih Bukhari vol. 5, Book 58, Number 234 Narrated 'Aisha: The prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six. We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Harith Kharzraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became all right, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage).
Help us out H2O tell us exactly what Aisha says about going to Medina? at what age did she leave for Medina? H2O were you not trying to tell us with one hadith taken out of context in which you made an argument out of silence that "
She already reached puberty before they married when she was still living in Makkah before the Hijrah. when the hadiths do not contradict each other state she was pre-pubescent right into Medina and was even playing with her girl friends in the swings in Medina while being led up the aisle???
It is very telling in the following hadith, what on earth would surprise a 9 yr old girl that had just been playing with her friends on the swing and her mother had made her go into the house of some 'prophet'
Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 90
Narrated Aisha:
When the Prophet married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah's Apostle to me in the forenoon.
what do you think surprised her H2O? was it having sex with this so called 'prophet'?
I find it unbelieveable anybody but H2O would come to the conclusion that Aisha had reached puberty at Mecca from this hadith which does not in anyway state so:
Al-Bukhari Volumn 001, Book 008, Hadith Number 465.
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Narated By 'Aisha : (The wife of the Prophet) I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty. Not a day passed but the Prophet visited us, both in the mornings and evenings. My father Abu Bakr thought of building a mosque in the courtyard of his house and he did so. He used to pray and recite the Qur'an in it. The pagan women and their children used to stand by him and look at him with surprise. Abu Bakr was a Softhearted person and could not help weeping while reciting the Quran. The chiefs of the Quraish pagans became afraid of that (i.e. that their children and women might be affected by the recitation of Quran)."
from her comment "
I had seen my parents following Islam since I attained the age of puberty" suddenly he takes it to mean she was at puberty before her parents became muslims which the hadith does not say but which he interprets it to mean, and that this is referring to the Meccan period as opposed to after the Hijra in Medina in other words he is asserting a negative premise that Aisha was at puberty before her parents were muslims which the hadith does not say even the website source that he stated as opposed to sahih hadith (because he couldn't find any hadith to support his view) states that Aisha was "born a muslim":
H2O commits the logical fallacies of making an argument out of silence and asserting his own negative premise by claiming:
H2O wrote: :
She already reached puberty before they married when she was still living in Makkah before the Hijrah.
Marriage between Aisha and Mohammed is not mentioned in that hadith, Aisha reaching puberty before marriage is not mentioned, marriage is not even hinted at yet H2O has to follow this unbelievable subjective stance contradicting all the sahih hadiths mentioned above which in no way contradict each other because this is all he has, the sahih hadiths mentioned clearly state that Aisha was six when the marriage was contracted and 9 when she was sent to live with the 'prophet' and when the 'marriage' was consumated ( in Medina). Any objective individual but H2O would see that the phrase "
since I attained the age of puberty" might as well be " for as long as I can remember"
Sahih Bukhari 5.236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915, also Number 4916 and Number 4917
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.
According to these hadiths she was still swinging in Medina which is what you would expect from a pre-puberty little girl, she was pre-puberty in Medina when the 'marriage' took place and pre-puberty in Medina when the 'marriage' was consumated.
Knock yourself out making some more embarassing deductions while claiming you are without error, making a fool out of yourself in the process.
H20 wrote:Aburaees, I would have to read all the hadeeths all over again which would take me another 3 years to complete from Bukhari to Thirmidhi. There are hadeeths that express the gap period that mentions nothing of Aisha's age. I have never ran into this issue in question of it.
Let us not forget that in between the three year period this is what the 'prophet' used to do:
After studying the issue, the committee has answered as follows:
It has not been the practice of the Muslims throughout the centuries to resort to this unlawful practice that has come to our countries from pornographic movies that the kufar (infidels) and enemies of Islam send. As for the prophet, may Allah be pleased with him, thighing his fiancée Aisha, when she was six years of age and not able to consummate the relationship due to her small age. That is why the prophet used to place HIS MALE MEMBER BETWEEN HER THIGHS AND MASSAGE IT SOFTLY, as the prophet had control of his male member not like other men. (Source:
http://www.sout-al-haqe.com/pal/musical/mofakhaza.ram) x
Aburaees wrote:
I agree, a Paedophile by definition has sex with a premenstrual or prepubertal girl.
Those who dislike Muhammad's marriage to a 9 year old are only appealing to the Social-Convention of modern democratic western society.
where do you think this social-convention of modern democratic western society stems from?
We not only dislike Mohammed's 'marriage' (sexual abuse is the appropriate term) we call Mohammed a pedophile because as you well know he is an al-Insan al-kamil the perfect human being whose behaviour transcends all time. By 20th century standards he is a clear cut paedophile do you disagree?
According to the most stringent clinical definition of paedophilia, DSM-IV-TR,
Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviours involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 235:
Narrated 'Aisha:
"...the Prophet said to her (Aisha), 'You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and someone said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done.'"
2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
"that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' ".
Narrated Abu Usaid:
We went out with the Prophet to a garden called Ash-Shaut till we reached two walls between which we sat down. The Prophet said, "Sit here," and went in (the garden). The Jauniyya (a lady from Bani Jaun) had been brought and lodged in a house in a date-palm garden in the home of Umaima bint An-Nu'man bin Sharahil, and her wet nurse was with her. When the Prophet entered upon her, he said to her, "Give me yourself (in marriage) as a gift." She said, "Can a princess give herself in marriage to an ordinary man?" The Prophet raised his hand to pat her so that she might become tranquil. She said, "I seek refuge with Allah from you." He said, "You have sought refuge with One Who gives refuge. Then the Prophet came out to us and said, "O Abu Usaid! Give her two white linen dresses to wear and let her go back to her family." Narrated Sahl and Abu Usaid: The Prophet married Umaima bint Sharahil, and when she was brought to him, he stretched his hand towards her. It seemed that she disliked that, whereupon the Prophet ordered Abu Usaid to prepare her and to provide her with two white linen dresses. (See Hadith No. 541). Sahih Bukhari 7:63:182 Which mature princess has a wet nurse? no muslim has yet showed me what was so innocent about this whole debacle
3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.
Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:
Narrated 'Aisha:
" I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)"
Here is a list of Muslim countries and their ages of female consent:
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
Brunei 14; Egypt 18; Indonesia 17; Iran 14; Iraq 18; Jordan 16; Lebanon 15; Malaysia 16; Morocco 15; Syria 13; Tunisia 20; Turkey 15; UAE 18; Uzbekistan 16.
So you see, Muhammad would be prosecuted for child sex abuse (in one form or another) in these Muslim countries.
Cultural relativism is not acceptable for a man whose followers claim is the perfect example of man for all time – which means his deeds must transcend both cultural and temporal boundaries. It might have been okay in the 7th century to have sex with 9-year-olds but not in the 21st century and beyond. Why judge him by modern standards? Because his followers ask him to be: they claim that he is the example of the perfect human being
FOR ALL TIME. PS: Allah should have foreseen how much embarrassment this marriage would cause Muhammad and stopped it.
H2O wrote:The out cry by westerners is mere prejudice not even understanding their own history mereless biblical history and customs. Right now if such a case was brought before an eastern Christian they woudl see it as perfectly normal. This is the problem between east and west.
The character by those other than your self have demostrated pure prejudice in a secular and cultural bias view.
I agree. This is the reason I asked Christians to support their case with Scripture. Liberate appealed to the "do unto other..." teaching, but I hardly believe that it has anything to do with the age gap between a man and a woman.
Mere prejudice? Do you realise it was christians that formed the laws of these westernised societies?
Exactly aburaees what do you understand by Jesus's statement here:
Matt. 7:12 (and Luke 6:31) ..."So in everything, do unto others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
When it applies to a 60 year old man and a 6 year old girl? Are you honestly saying you must be told in clear unambiguous terms not to do it before you abstain? Do you think any of the apostles would sanction such a disgusting act? if you think christianity is a series of rules and laws that govern your day from what you wear to what you eat and to how many pieces of toilet tissue you use like islam you are in for a shock.
H2O wrote:Nothing from the Bible could be quoted to support one's secular view of what they call a pedophile.
That has been demonstrated within this very thread.
What do you understand Aburaees by Jesus's comment here: in
Matt. 7:12 (and Luke 6:31) ..."So in everything, do unto others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."
Remember now Jesus is saying "
For this sums up the Law and the prophets"
what do you understand by it in relation to paedophilia?
It would be hypocritical to judge Muhammad's marriage as a "Sin", when there is no scripture condemning this type of alleged sin.
This I am afraid is an unwarranted contrast logical fallacy, you are asking why a spiritual book doesn't have legalism when legalism is precisely what it is trying to free you from, it's like asking why an english book doesn't have mathematical formulae, completely different subjects, islam is legalism to ridiculous levels, christianity is a spiritual relationship with God.
My point is that if Islam is deficient when it comes to protecting young girls, Christianity is also deficient when it comes to protecting young girls.
I have to disagree, no christian will defend paedophilia or even contemplate looking for a law in the bible that specifically warns about paedophilia because it is simple common sense, the law of do unto others as you would have them do unto you reinforces that a 60 year old man sleeping with a 6 year old girl is wrong, it will be an insult to one's sense of right and wrong to be told this act is wrong, this is the problem with islam it completely subdues common sense, just a few days ago I watched a programme where educated westernised muslims were asking an imam if it was lawful to play music, draw pictures, or design clothes it would be hilarious if they weren't so serious, to be honest if you ask a christian why there is no law against paedophilia why stop there why not ask for a law againt necrophilia or drosophilia or lesbianism or whatever else society is having a problem with, I reiterate christianity is not legalism.
In my opinion secular morality wins hands-down on this matter unless it can be shown that it is infact in line with Biblical eachings.
I am afraid you are wrong here, I have spoken to several atheists their main stance is morality is strictly based on nurture, when I put the question straight to them some have blatantly told me the disgust at paedophilia is strictly nurture imposed and morality is relative they even feel that christianity is controlling their daily lives with the 10 commandments or variances of it enshrined in law, again I can assure you the moral laws you see in the west are based on christian values, it was christians that initiated these laws and raised the age of consent, if the secular world has it's way the age of consent would be much lower and they are fighting tooth and nail for things like this.
Here's from the Catholic Encyclopedia;
I still fail to see in the entire article where it states that this is the church's stance (catholic or protestant's) on those civil marriages, do you not see it is giving a de facto summary of civil marriage laws?
By the common law the age at which minors were capable of marrying, known as the age of consent, was fixed at fourteen years for males and twelve years for females.
Marriages under the age of seven years for both were void, but between seven and the age of consent the parties could contract an imperfect marriage, which was voidable but not necessarily void.
The marriage of parties who had attained the age of consent was valid even though
they lacked parental consent, until in England the marriage act of 1753 declared such marriages void.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09691b.htm
I wonder if those marriages were contracted within similar age groups or between a 60 year old and a 14 year old? what do you think? It seems you are making another unwarranted contrast, the article is talking about minors marrying while you are associating it with paedophilia, not the same thing at all I fail to see where in the entire article it states this is the church's views on those civil marriages? Do you forget it was christians that fought to raise the age of consent?