Aburees wrote:
Liberate wrote:
On the contrary our secular morality is derived at least for those in the west from mainly christian values.
But where are Christian values derived from?
Judo-christian principles, the ten commandments from Exodus in the old testament:
i) Thou shalt serve no other God than Me
ii) Thou shalt serve no graven images
iii) Thou shalt not take the Lord's name in vain
iv) Thou shalt not kill
v) Thou shalt not bear false witness
vi) Thou shalt not commit adultery
vii) Thou shalt not steal
viii) Thou shalt respect the sabbath
ix) Honour thy father and thy mother
x) Thou shalt not covet they neighbours goods
Which Jesus sums up for the christian in Matt. 7:12 (and Luke 6:31) ..."
So in everything, do unto others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets"
In other words I don't want you to kill me so I do not kill you
I do not want you to steal from me so I do not steal from you...
This is the building block of society's laws in the West and America, and indeed many nations on earth, although the secular world in the west is fighting tooth and nail to overturn these laws and when it does all hell shall break loose.
In the interest of objectivity you will not find this doctrine from Mohammed, he is notorious for virtually breaking all 10 commandments but allegedly serving the same God.
H2O wrote:Liberate wrote:The bible is silent on a lot of things but it can be gauged using some common sense whether what you are doing is right or wrong, it does not talk about lesbianism, neither does it talk about necrophilia or hermaphrodites.
Common sense to every society is not the same as the concepts are influence by the laws and culture of a particular country. Secularized countries have different concepts and ideas to Communistic countries like wise with Theocratic countries. If your argument of “common sense” was a reality then every country would be Secular.
200 years ago in America it was “common sense” to those people, whom the majority was Christian; to marry females at the ages of 9-12 depending on the state they lived in.
As time passed, the laws changed to adapt to the countries development and economical needs. For a woman to marry young and have children at the age of 12-15 was normal in 1700-1800 America, as women didn’t have to go to school and didn’t have to work. Their sole duty was to administer the home in the absence of the man. Thus the children were brought up with moral and ethical care which is absent in most 2005 American families where as women are not able to stay at home to spend time with their children to assure their well being.
As the laws and economy changed concepts and cultural perspectives also changed due to the infused programming of the society.
In other words Liberate and for any other Christian, your concepts of humanity would be different if you were in 1700-1800 America.
And I am pretty sure if we did a genealogy trace on anyone of you that we would find your grandmothers married and had children at 10-12 years of age.
You are pretty sure?
You are a desperate apologetic and an out and out liar who does not know what he is talking about.
Here is a quote from the Victorian library on the average age of marriages from the 16th century right to the 19th century:
Marriage statistics indicate that the mean marriage age for the Elizabethan and Jacobean eras was higher than many people realize. Data taken from birthdates of women and marriage certificates reveals mean marriage ages to have been as follows:
1566-1619 27.0 years
1647-1719 29.6 years
1719-1779 26.8 years
1770-1837 25.1 years
http://ise.uvic.ca/Library/SLTnoframes/ ... riage.html
A six year old girl is still playing with her dolls in this day and age, a six year old girl is still playing with her dolls in 7th century Arabia:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)
Again islam is very clear Aisha did not reach puberty, she was still playing with her dolls.
BTW the average age of puberty is actually going down meaning girls took longer to reach puberty a few millennia’s ago:
Hot climates do not produce early maturity, the average age for puberty in the middle east is 13.3 the very same age for girls in the west:
Have you ever wondered why girls can be married off at the age of 9 in Saudi Arabia and Iran and many muslim dominated countries? Where on earth do you think they are getting this 'emulated' behaviour from? isn't your prophet an al-Insan al-kamil the perfect human being whose behaviour transcends all time? If we cannot judge him by the morality of the 20th century and indeed the morality of christians in the 1st century in whose God he claimed to follow you might as well say the entire koran has no relevance to the 21st century.
Equalling menstruation with female physical maturity is a popular mistake. There are still many people in the West who believe this is so. However, most girls who start menstruating do not have fully grown sexual characteristics. Their breasts have not yet stopped growing, their wombs have not fully matured and often the fat on their hips needed for a stable cycle is not yet sufficient. Often a girl is not able to conceive in the first months or even the first two years after her first menstruation. The start of menses is part of the process of physical maturation but it does not signify the end of this process.
Girls who have unprotected sexual intercourse and who become pregnant before they have fully matured physically run considerable risks. These risks are most severe if a girl is still rather small. This is usually the case if a girl is under twelve.
- Girls ages 10 to 14 are five times more likely to die in pregnancy or childbirth than women who are 20 to 24; while girls who are 15 to 19 are twice as likely to die.
- Fistula is a health risk commonly associated with child marriage because of the mother's physical immaturity at the time of childbirth. A girl whose pelvis and birth canal are not fully developed at the time of delivery often endures labor that lasts for many hours or days. Unless emergency obstetric care is available, the pressure from the baby's head in the birth canal may cause tearing of the young mother's vagina, bladder and rectum, causing uncontrollable leakage of urine or feces
.
http://www.icrw.org/docs/childmarriage0803.pdf
Liberate wrote:I would also like to state that the koran is very clear that it is ok to marry off girls that have not attained puberty:……..
"Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy. " (65:4 )………
Knowing H20 I have no doubt he will retranslate said ayat and create his own tafsir because his faith depends on it.
Actually Liberate I have a problem with the way this is represented.
surprise surprise
The topic is about DIVORCE which are rulings; the subject is in regards to WOMEN. The Quran addresses Divorce in terms of WOMEN not GIRLS. Can you show me where it says in the Arabic “GIRLs” ?
Also the Quran is addressing WOMEN whom did not yet get their periods.
The more you spit out this disgusting parroted stance the more we will start taking you seriously
Again this is the interpretation of said ayat:
Allah the Exalted clarifies the waiting period of the woman in menopause. And that is the one whose menstruation has stopped due to her older age. Her `Iddah is three months instead of the three monthly cycles for those who menstruate, which is based upon the Ayah in (Surat) Al-Baqarah. [see 2:228] The same for the young, who have not reached the years of menstruation. Their `Iddah is three months like those in menopause. This is the meaning of His saying.
http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=65&tid=54196
So spit it out you think Ibn Kathir is an idiot and doesn't know what he is talking about? the 90% of islam that is sunni and the 5% that is shia that respects Ibn Kathir are also idiots and don’t know when a pre pubescent girl is being referred as opposed to a fully mature woman?
Also the Quran expresses Married WOMEN who did not yet get their periods in terms of Divorce which denotes one can marry a WOMAN when she has not yet gotten her period.
This is not what the ayat is talking about you are an out and out liar, it is talking about females whether those that have had their periods or those that have not had their periods (the young) I have shown you two tafsirs that says it refers to the young that have not had their periods like all the nonsense you have said so far you take your own slant and create your own religion indirectly saying nobody understands arabic better than you regardless whether it be Ibn Kathir or Mohammed himself, making your disgraceful religion even more shameful because in order to get a divorce you have to get married and if you are getting a divorce from a pre-pubescent girl who has not had her period it means she was already a 'wife' before reaching puberty.
In Islam a female become a WOMAN when she reaches the age of PUBERTY
Islam categorically disregards puberty only desperate westernised apologetics like you bring up this puberty garbage
Bring us one piece of evidence from islamic jurisprudence and not your re-interpreted nonsense.
whereas most women don’t get their periods until 2,3,4 years after puberty.
What on earth are you talking about? puberty does not end with the first sign of a period, this is a disgusting stance you are either one sick puppy or this is your idea of a joke, she has reached puberty and she is now a woman? she may not have had her period but she has reached puberty and she is now a woman? she can have sex and have children and get hitched to a 60 year old??? Is this really what you are saying she is a woman when she reaches puberty how do you know if she has reached puberty and she has no period pray pls tell us as a muslim in the desert how you would know she has reached puberty and has no period?
Does a 6-13 year old girl look mature enough in body and mind to carry through a pregnancy? Have you ever wondered why Aisha never had any children do you know what happens to a child's sexual organs when it is defiled when it is still developing?
Do you realise just how sick you sound?
According to the most stringent clinical definition of paedophilia, DSM-IV-TR,
Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviours involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 235:
Narrated 'Aisha:
"...the Prophet said to her (Aisha), 'You have been shown to me twice in my dream. I saw you pictured on a piece of silk and someone said (to me). 'This is your wife.' When I uncovered the picture, I saw that it was yours. I said, 'If this is from Allah, it will be done.'"
2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.
Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65:
Narrated 'Aisha:
"that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)' ".
3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.
Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151:
Narrated 'Aisha:
" I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.)"
Here is a list of Muslim countries and their ages of female consent:
http://www.avert.org/aofconsent.htm
Brunei 14; Egypt 18; Indonesia 17; Iran 14; Iraq 18; Jordan 16; Lebanon 15; Malaysia 16; Morocco 15; Syria 13; Tunisia 20; Turkey 15; UAE 18; Uzbekistan 16.
So you see, Muhammad would be prosecuted for child sex abuse (in one form or another) in these Muslim countries.
Cultural relativism is not acceptable for a man whose followers claim is the perfect example of man for all time – which means his deeds must transcend both cultural and temporal boundaries. It might have been okay in the 7th century to have sex with 9-year-olds but not in the 21st century and beyond. Why judge him by modern standards? Because his followers ask him to be: they claim that he is the example of the perfect human being
FOR ALL TIME. PS: Allah should have foreseen how much embarrassment this marriage would cause Muhammad and stopped it.