Christian/Muslim ThreadsWhat qualifies Muhamad as a prophet ?No.when i joined here... i was interested in knowing more about christianity only. If i wish to learn more of Islam i would go to a muslim site... reading islamic info from a christian site... well what can i say... its stupid. But when i see people like you bringing "documentary proof" of diabolical origins etc of Islam... i believe it is my right and duty to clear this misconception up... honestly ... i really dont care what you think... it is of no consequence to me... everyone pays the price for what he/she does. If i am wrong ... i will pay the price... i do not deny that. I have no sureity that i will enter heaven or will be forgiven or whatever.. none what so ever... Tell me ... would you accept catholic references proving christianity or greek orthodox books or something that you do not believe in but is considered to be christian??? i assume no. similarly.. not all sunni ref's are right... however i will also say that neither all ref's in shia books 100% right... men are known to be over-zealous in their "faith" and then there are muslims who just wanna throw in some crap... just for the fun of it...i am sure such a concept does not exist in christianity ... all men are good... they make no mistakes - knowingly or otherwise... but in Islam ... well we have to be realistic. there are the good and there are the bad and then there are the diabolical... and it is due to these last 2 categories that much of Islam has been distorted in the eyes of non-muslims... No. I do not reject hadiths just because..... i read them.. cross ref them judge them based on the Quran and common sense and logic... and if it fails the test... its a fabricated hadith. so once again (i think this is the 3rd or 4th time i am repeating it) hadith books are not infallable. they can and do contain mistakes. not just sunni but shia as well. the question is which ones are right and which ones are not .... thats where common sense and logic steps in... Altho i am not an authority on Islam... i do have a brain. i call it as i see it... even if the entire world's muslim priests disagreed with me... i will not step back. after all they too are mere humans capable of making mistakes... while christians on the other hand are automatically error-proof. call it whatever you like... your opinions are of no consequence of me. It is you who is equating the hadiths with infallibility... you do not need to be a muslim ... you just have to use a lil' intelligence.. people here are telling you that all hadiths are not 100% true... yet you wish to ignore these people and still act ignorant to this fact.. and post the same story again and again. Dude.. get over it. the hadiths you post are false!!!!!!!!!!! So what if they were written by muslims??? are muslims error-free? NO.. I am a person who has a brain.. has intelligence.. is able to differentiate between right and wrong... can see which is fact and which is fiction based on logic as the first step. I am a Ithna-ashri shia.. you could say like Ayatollah Khomenie... or the other shia's the world knows of. as for the without hadiths there is no Islam... are you saying that it is either all true or all false??? there is no in-between??? Either all existing hadiths are false and Islam has to basis or all hadiths are true and Islam is a sham??? Is this what you are saying??? if so... then you are absolutely wrong. Its funny when a christian says use common sense.... anyways.. read this.. Gen 11:27 ¶ Now these are the generations of Terah: Terah fathered Abram, Nahor and Haran. And Haran fathered Lot. 28 And Haran died before his father Terah in the land of his birth, in Ur of the Chaldeans. 29 And Abram and Nahor took wives for themselves. The name of Abram's wife was Sarai. And the name of Nahor's wife, Milcah, the daughter of Haran, the father of Milcah, and the father of Iscah. Nahor marrying Milcah who is his neice??? is this incest??? and this is what is happened... however what you are saying about the Quranic verese is a different matter... meaning there is a difference between being allowed to do some thing and actually getting down to doing it... for instance i will give you this.. that Prophet Muhammed made up the verses in question... why didnt he follow thru??? whats his motivation???plz answer this... if he were the sick demented sexual freak you portray him to be... why didnt he fulfill this verse??? unlike people from thhe bible who actually commited incest. and it is forbidden in the bible... well??? Gen 19:30 ¶ And Lot went up out of Zoar, and lived in the mountain, and his two daughters with him. For he feared to live in Zoar, and he and his two daughters lived in a cave. 31 And the first-born said to the younger, Our father is old, and there is no man in the earth to come in to us in the way of all the earth. 32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, so that we may preserve seed of our father. 33 And they made their father drink wine that night. And the first-born went in, and lay with her father. And he did not notice when she lay down nor when she arose. 34 And it happened on the next day, the first-born said to the younger, Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine this night also, and you go in and lie down with him so that we may preserve seed of our father. 35 And they made their father drink wine that night also, and the younger arose and lay with him. And he did not notice when she lay down nor when she arose. 36 So both the daughters of Lot were with child by their father. 37 And the first-born bore a son, and called his name Moab. He is the father of the Moabites to this day. 38 And the younger also bore a son, and called his name Ben-ammi; he is the father of the sons of Ammon to this day. If you have an answer to this "disgusting anti-christian" behaviour.. that answer will be the answer you seek. Miracle = The Quran Prophecy from the Bible : Deu 18:18 Prophethood established. No one vouched for Jesus. Who made him Prophet? meaning does a person have to second a person who claims Prophethood??? Who vouched for Moses? Aaron?? Joshua?? were they in direct communication with God??? Did they recieve revelations?? did they encounter the burning bush? Meaning... vouching for someone doesnt make that person a Prophet... I can vouch for another person... does it make him a prophet??? Meaning... this is an irrevelent criteria for prophethood. Ever heard of the phrase "false testamony"??? You need to get 4 just and righteous persons who are known to be non-liars. Mat 23:33 Serpents! Offspring of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? 39 For I say to you, You shall not see Me from now on until you say, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord." Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold, a pale horse. And the name of him sitting on it was Death, and Hell followed with him. And authority was given to them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword and with hunger and with death and by the beasts of the earth. Rev 20:15 And if anyone was not found having been written in the Book of Life, he was cast into the Lake of Fire. hmm... Threatening one to be in religion you say huh?? hmm... Ok.. i'll bite.. what does God care about? Is that why paul abolished the law??? called it a curse??? We dont need laws... we are good christians.. good deeds will automatically come from us... hmm.. maybe thats why the civilised christian world has be fighting with anyone and everyone and themselves for the past 2000 yrs. regarding the stone running away... i posted the relevent info. read up.(as for the part which you later on say Qarun is Haroon is Aaron.. nope.. thats wrong... let me post just the 1st paragraph.. just incase you overlooked it... Do you see that there are 3 persons here??? i know you mention this later on in your post... so i wont deal with it then... but just to emphises my point that you do not read the entire info.. just waht suits your purpose. plz be a lil more open minded... About Mary... that too was deal with ... i assume you just skipped it since it left no doubt ... About the honey incident... also answered... whatelse?? have i missed out anything??? oh yea the lump part... also answered. it is a false info... there was no lump... fabricated hadith. The Surahs tell me how do you know how to greet / glorify God??? did you make it up yourself?? did your pastor / parents tell you?? does the Bible say so?? My understanding here of the initial words is it shows man how to greet God.. How to glorify Him... etc... i dont see anything wrong with this... first of all.. when a person visits another... he shouldnt sit and make nonsensical talk... meaninless pointless chat.. if some guy came to my place and sat for hours saying mindless gossip or absurd chitchat.. i would be pissed.. and i might even throw him out... now consider doing this with a person who is God-sent??? another thing which you seem to have avoided to copy is the initial part of this verse... let me do it for you.. [Shakir 33:53] O you who believe! do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to you for a meal, not waiting for its cooking being finished-- but when you are invited, enter, and when you have taken the food, then disperse-- not seeking to listen to talk; surely this gives the Prophet trouble, but he forbears from you, and Allah does not forbear from the truth And when you ask of them any goods, ask of them from behind a curtain; this is purer for your hearts and (for) their hearts; and it does not behove you that you should give trouble to the Messenger of Allah, nor that you should marry his wives after him ever; surely this is grievous in the sight of Allah. on reading this verse it automatically creates an image that some of the companions of the Prophet has a serious problem with manners... barging in the door... endless gossip... vain talk..etc.. does such behaviour infront of a God-sent Prophet seem ok to you? Or will you argue that i dont need a book to teach me manners!!!!! point is there were some who had no manners... and there still are some... this verse is relevent to them... and to others as a guideline to a decent society... First off are these your comments??? or you copied them?? i ask this because i would like to know if your mind is already made up about his character?? anyways... here is the commentary for 66:1-2 The Holy Prophet used to drink a glass of honey-syrup whenever he visited the apartment of Zaynab. A-isha and Hafsa became resentful, and A-isha devised a plot. Knowing the Holy Prophet's dislike of unpleasant smells she held her nose when he came to her apartment after drinking a glass of honey-syrup prepared by Zaynab, and accused him of having eaten the produce of a very ill-smelling tree. When she accused him of having eaten maghafir (a nauseating herb) the Holy Prophet said that he had taken only honey. She said: "The bees had fed on maghafir." When he visited Hafsa she also acted just like A-isha. Displeased with their obnoxious behaviour the Holy Prophet vowed not to eat honey any more. This is recorded by Bukhari in his commentary on Tahrim, in his Sahih, Vol. 3, p. 136. In the same place are recorded several traditions as related by Umar bin Khattab stating that the two women, A-isha and Hafsa were insolent and haughty towards the Holy Prophet. On a day assigned to Hafsa, when she was not found in her apartment as she went to her parent's house, the Holy Prophet spent the night with Marya, the coptic girl, presented to him by the ruler of Egypt, who became the mother of his son, Ibrahim. To calm the quarrelsome bad temper of Hafsa he vowed that he would have no more to do with Marya. The wives of the Holy Prophet were expected to show a higher standard in behaviour, as they were in the company of the superior most teacher of manners, social behaviour and etiquette. The Holy Prophet's mind was sorely distressed by the obnoxious behaviour of A-isha and Hafsa and he renounced the society of his wives for one month. Verse one was revealed to say that as Allah has allowed him honey and Marya, he did not have to forsake any of them. If any vow prevents from doing good or acting rightly one should expiate the vow, but not refrain from doing good deeds. For the expiation of oaths and vows see commentary of Ma-idah: 89 and for the vain oaths and vows Baqarah: 225. Verses 3 to 5 refer to A-isha and Hafsa who were envious and jealous to the point of sickness against the Holy Prophet's refined and highminded wives. Once Hafsa came to know about a very personal matter concerning the Holy Prophet which he thought should not be made public, therefore he asked her not to publish it. But she at once rushed to her friend A-isha and whispered to her a version which was in great part untrue. Hafsa who betrayed confidence and A-isha who encouraged the betrayal were commanded to turn in repentance to Allah. If they were to resist repentance and amends, they would be abetting each other's crime but could not harm the most perfect messenger of Allah whom all the spiritual forces always surrounded to protect from every type of slander and falsehood. Please refer to Kanz al Ummal, vol. 6 p. 294 and Ibn Sad's Tabaqat, vol.8, p. 115. Now you might want to say ... "Honey?????" why would a woman get mad about honey... but you need to know that these 2 women had issues with the Prophet... so much so.. that he was authorised by God .. that if he so desired he could divorce them... on hearing this these 2 women temporarily reformed / repented... Sometimes it helps to read different translations... here i am providing 2 more translations for your doubts [Shakir 66:4] If you both turn to Allah, then indeed your hearts are already inclined (to this); and if you back up each other against him, then surely Allah it is Who is his Guardian, and Jibreel and -the believers that do good, and the angels after that are the aiders. [Yusufali 66:4] If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe,- and furthermore, the angels - will back (him) up. [Pickthal 66:4] If ye twain turn unto Allah repentant, (ye have cause to do so) for your hearts desired (the ban); and if ye aid one another against him (Muhammad) then lo! Allah, even He, is his Protecting Friend, and Gabriel and the righteous among the believers; and furthermore the angels are his helpers. also the two refered to here is Aisha and Hafsa this part is a lil complicated... it concerns freewill v/s divine destiny... If God says something definate.. then it is something ordained and cannot be bypassed... this is divine destiny... free will has no place in this senario... but if God were to make it a conditional statement .. i.e. If ... then this is a matter of free will .. God is not forcing upon the person in question an order... as for It may be or to put it in plain english If God so desired... this is a future event.. 2nd if this line were not conditional but rather a statement ... i.e. not if's and no buts etc.. then it would be a matter ordained... Prophet Muhammed would have no say in the matter... hence no free will.. looking at it from another view... we do not know what God will do or wont do... even God doesnt tell us about His immediate future plans... We are left in the dark as to Gods plans... If God said that He will give ... then this would have been an excuse for Prophet Muhammed to go ahead with the divorce... i say this because to you he is a sex freak even if i say otherwise.... so even in this senario ... Prophet Muhammed is uncertain of the future outcome. I agree.. these are all from the Quran ... what i was talking about were the comments you add... yours or what? what???? you are the first person i have ever heard say such a thing... early muslims didnt know how to read and write... you are joking right?? if not... then you seriously need to stop reading all that anti-islamic literature... arabs then knew how to read and write... why do you think literature and poetry were prevelent back then??? coz they were ill-literate??? c'mon dude... and where did you get the 150 years number??? The language revealed in was arabic... under the quraish dialect... the quraish didnt need the extra marks for reading... they knew exactly what was what... It was Imam Ali who introduced these dialectric marks... also knows as kufic script well tell ing me they couldnt read and write is pure fantasy on your part. because it is a proven fact that even the oldest Quran dates back to the uthmanic Quran. and he died like 10-15 years after Prophet Muhammed. The Stone story again... Dude??? for the love of God.. read what i am writing and try to understand it... i said stones dont move... they have no life... the word inanimate says it all... which part of stones are inanimate do you not understand??? if you think that this is the basis for 33:69.. then you are sadly mistaken... i have already posted the relevent info on this topic... a few paragraphs above... God!!!! and your point is???? wat are you trying to say?? i dont understand... its a metaphore... the sky n all are not speaking back or replying etc... tell me .. do you believe everything in the universe happens only by the permission of God?? eg. the earth moving in its orbit??? is the earth moving of its own free will or has God set it to be like that??? similarly... rules have been set for inanimate objects... and this is what is spoken of here... the donkey hadith.... dude.. its false. i sid this before... and what exactly are you trying to prove by providing a anti-shia sunni point of view??? I am telling you myself .. Shia books of hadiths are not infalliable... they do contain errors.. fabrications etc... plz lets move on.... ok.. what did they have??? Jesus' words??? a few feats of magic? i ahve already proven to you that excorsism and sticks to snakes can be from the devil... so we are back to square one... how did the 12 disciples know Jesus was who he claimed to be? Did they get divine revelations??? How did the other Prophets recieve their divine messages??? no. it was an honest answer. I dont know. would you care to enlighten me? as for questioning Islam.. dude.. i do it all the time... there are things that i do not agree with... and i am trying to sort it out... atleast i know there are some issues...that need to be resolved. Now who is answering a question with another question??? or are you trying to say all men on earth past present and future have impeccable manners??? have you heard of peeping toms??? voyouers?? is an adopted son the same as biological son? what is it that sets relationships??? blood line or paper??? or is your argument based on western ethics only??? and you call this reading betw the lines??? i call this wilful character assasination... answer this question... can God make a square circle? can God create a rock He cant lift? does man really have free will if God has already ordained everything? Doesnt God know everything past present and future meaning what we did, are doing and will do... if so then do we really have a choice??? such questions have no answers... or are too complicated to comprehend.. just like your trinity... i bet if you were to seriously equate 3 with 1 i.e. 3=1 you would reach a junction where you will begin to doubt... such questions are refered to here. Islam isnt about follow the leader... question everything but not in a stupid manner Yes i am. No ... my point is disbelief in Jesus by Peter... Peter disagreed with Jesus.. and not only that he rebuked Jesus.. what is the meaning of rebuke?? rebuke —v. (-king) express sharp disapproval to (a person) for a fault; censure. —n. rebuking or being rebuked. [Anglo-French] So Peter rebuked Jesus because he loved him very much??? Does such a behaviour seem right towards a God-sent man??? which brings us to sqare 1 again.. how or waht are the requirements for Prophethood??? and may i add... what makes one a false prophet as well?? Maybe i didnt understand.. ok.. answer is no. no one else... atleast from a general islamic view... when??? Past prophecies are subject to individuals interpretations... i claim Deu 18:18 as his prophecy... and i also claim the verse where Jesus says " I must leave for the comforter to come.... etc" but you being a christian will deny it. so?? solution??? what is to be done about it? A.L.M. I am sorry.. i dont know the answer to this... all that i know is it hase some mystical inner meaning that only God and those in whom is knowledge know... yea yea i know ... typical answer... Have you heard of the aprochripal book of Abraham?? i have a copy if you are interested... dude... i said all i put forth is based on your book... irrevelent of what the Quran says. He claimed a prophecy for himself Deu18:18 and the comforter verses of NT Moses (Deu 18:18 ) and Jesus (comforter verses) John heard a sound.. isnt satan capable of showing himself as an angel of light??? None. but there are hadiths which say otherwise.. however i wont use them here as i am not sure of its authenticity... but people witnessed the act of revelation happening. ???? Define miracle. Yes .. Deu 18:18 and the comforter verses... Did God say HE would protect the book?? if He did then the extra 6 books that the catholic church has... are they part of the real book or is the protestent version the real deal?? No.. that was an honest question... i would like to know why... plz share So satan can take a light form.. hmm interesting... btw.. if you have read Acts in the NT .. you will come across the incident of Paul and his "vision" of a bright light... Proof?? No. When John the Baptist heard this sentence.. .Prophet Muhammed didnt exist. so context shows that it could be satan who spoke out... False hadiths what is the significance ??? do you mean to say either Jesus or Adam were created for no reason? Reference Jesus and the whiping and throwing out of all moneylenders etc from the great temple... No. I do not have the ref.. i have to search it.. .if anyone has it they are most welcoe to share. and these didnt exist between 4 BC and 33 AD ??? Based on your twisted interpretation ... my views?? read www.al-islam.org/lifeprophet/index.htm www.al-islam.org/restatement/index.htm Yes. and because common sense dictates so. Are you more knowledgable that Arius?? in case you dont know it.. he was a unitarian.. he was totally anti - trinity.. do you know more than him??? Emperor constantine recognised him by inviting him to the 325AD nicea round table meeting... Would you like to point out your sick demented arrogant comments??? Fairy Tales www.al-islam.org/quran and incase you missed it earlier.. its Qarun, not Harun (Aaron) i pointed it out earlier in this post... Is the word of God seperate from God ??... I am tryin to visualize it... there is God and then there is the word of God (tape recorder) 2 seperate entities... and then there is the or rather there are the verses of Jesus talking to God but since you explained it ... Jesus speaking to himself. Thats logic and rational for you, right? Why dont you answer the question??? why play this cat and mouse game that you accuse me of and then go around play it yourself??? Is Jesus his own Father? NO?? then there is a distinct seperation of entities.. i.e. there are atleast 2 seperate entities God and Jesus.. well that takes care of the 2 in 3=1.. are you sure you agree with this?? i.e. 2 seperate entities? and now we have another entity added to the equation. so? 3 seperate distinct entities.. right?? do you agree? Oh!!! so the Quran is now right??? why??? Just coz it suits your purposes????? Mountain out of a mole hill??? Dude, Either the Quran is right or its false.. make up your mind.... the incident of Jesus whiping the money lenders etc at the great temple. Hadiths??? dude.. you know i am going to say its false.. Plz provide Quranic support. Mat 5 You see this is the problem... first you teach me how to read teh Quran and then you teach me how to read teh Bible... If your reading betw the lines gives you the rape and incest etc meaning.. then my reading betw the lines of these biblical verses gives the meaning i stated.. How can you say i am wrong when you yourself reinterpret Quranic verses .. dude.. plz stick to one standard... in short... what you are saying about the Quran etc is as much true as what i have said about the Bible... Do you understand? an example: see... didnt i post a similar statement to your 33:69 story?? and you just discounted it as fairy tales... similarly your understanding of Bible is flawed... it says chop of the hand.. chop it.. turn the other cheek?? turn.. etc. How do you know it is a metaphorical statement??? why is your meaning correct and mine wrong? true.. we are in a debate forum, I am not being oppressed or oppressive, neither of us is undergoing an injustice, I do not hate you, you are not my enemy. My problem is your doctrine, your analogy of a muslim or Islam is seriously flawed... You didnt answer the question...this is a general purpose automatic response... i asked if a believer were to commit a sin... will he enter heaven??? and why or why not? |
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