alifaia wrote:I take it you are not here to learn... but to teach... and teach what you feel is correct... even if the entire world says you are wrong.
What exactly have you been doing with all my posts to you so far? Are you not here as an apologetic to "explain away"/"teach us"/ the embarassing hadiths that give body and context to your religion?
When you tell me the hadiths are wrong, being taken out of context, contradict the koran, "and this is the proper context", I would like to see what hadiths you are using to base your evidence, and where it contradicts the koran, quoting me apologetic material written in the 20th century by westernized muslims to make islam seem mild to the west will do you no good, was your religion created in the 20th century?
Simply telling me I reject this hadith because the hadiths are not infallible proves what exactly? That your decision supercedes eminent imams and early muslim scholars who interpreted your religion? Are you an authority on islam? Do you realise all you have done so far is give your word alone that the hadiths are not infallible.?
Lets get some things cleared up... Hadith books... they are not divine. unless you can produce a document which represents the "95% of Islam" population who say these hadith books do not contain any mistakes ... all your current and past and future arguments are pointless...Just because you can copy paste doesnt make anything true or false. So... lets see this document which represents the 95% ... all who unanamously agree that these hadith books are 100% correct... not one mistake is contained in them...
Now you play the politician's game you have been playing all along, do not answer a straight forward question, simply reverse the question, you are asking me to give you a document that says the hadiths do not contain any mistakes? Am I a muslim? did I write the hadiths? Were the hadiths not written by muslims, as an example of how a muslim was to model himself? Who are you to say it is no longer incumbent on you to follow it? Which school of thought are you following to give such a reason for rejecting hadiths? Without the hadiths your koran has no context whatsoever, you have a religion made up of 114 utterings that no one can place or say why an ayat was said, making an argument out of silence does not really help you.
... If you want to explain Islam... you will need to put yourself in a muslims shoes... and then explain it...
In other words I have to displace common sense and never ask questions as to why Mohammed was giving freedom to commit incest? (Your response of "I don't know" just about sums up your whole discussion so far)
Why his petty squabbles and adultery are profilerated in the koran and memorised for all time to be chanted for all time and why a copy in heaven would contain such information for all time?
Why someone calling himself a prophet has no prophecy or miracle to his name to deem him the office of prophethood.?
Why nobody can vouch for this man that they heard from God that he really is a prophet, he is not prophecied in any of the two previous revelations and looks to be making it up at best and demonic possesed at worst?
Why I have to get four witnesses if I catch someone in the middle of adultery.?
...
I could be hauled up on blasphemy charges/fatwa/death threat/sentence/ if I start asking some moral questions about this 'holy' prophet, regardless of wether I am in the western hemisphere or the heart of islam? Does God need to threaten believers to keep them in the religion?
If this is the mindset I need to put myself in to understand you, it would mean the abdication of our God given common sense. I just find it incredible you are unable to see the self serving utterings so as
"not to inconvenience" Mohammed for yourself.
I am not saying you have to be muslim to explain... but you need to be in that mind frame...
That frame of mind is devoid of thinking for yourself...brainwashing, precisely what islam wants you to be, an automaton
you even have to chant things even if you do not understand the langauge, many hafizs do not even comprehend what they have memorised, what really is the point?, I could memorise the satanic verses from beginning to end , am I going to heaven because I memorised it? Am I going to heaven because I bow down to the east 5 times a day?, and I wash my elbows, my nostrils and ankles? Is this what God cares about?
Islam is nothing short of cultural legalism.
Ever heard the phrase Innocent until proven guilty??? you should have... its a western phrase... all you have done is pick some incidents... which suit your purpose... without checking its authenticity... and portrayed it as the absolute truth.
Ok show me the correct incidents
Show me the correct hadiths
Show me the correct contexts
When Mohammed said this:
sura 17:1 Most glorified is the One who summoned His servant (Muhammad) during the night, from the Sacred Masjid (of Mecca) to the farthest place of prostration [If this verse is coming from God why would God be talking to Himself in the third person, and greeting Himself??]
Sura 33:53:
but when ye are invited, enter; and when ye have taken your meal, disperse, without seeking familiar talk. Such (behaviour) annoys the Prophet: he is ashamed to dismiss you, but God is not ashamed (to tell you) the truth [
Is this really what God cares about?]
[color]...And when ye ask (his ladies) for anything ye want, ask them from before a screen: that makes for greater purity for your hearts and for theirs. Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.[/color]
[This sounds just like any other jealous old man with young wives who he wants to die in the knowledge that they never sleep with anybody else]
sura 66: O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which God has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful....
When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his consorts, and she then divulged it (to another), and God made it known to him, he confirmed part thereof and repudiated a part. Then when he told her thereof, she said, "Who told thee this? "He said, "He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)."
[Would you care to tell us what God had made lawful for the prophet? what thing God made known to him and repudiated a part?]
sura 66:...If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; But if ye back up each other against him, [Would you care to explain who the two should turn in repentance towards? it looks like they are to turn in repentance to Mohammed]
sura 66:..It may be, if he divorced you (all), that God will give him in exchange consorts better than you, [Would you care care to explain how God would have an indecisive conjunctive phrase like "maybe...if"]
These are not from anti-islamic orientalists but from your koran.
Would you like to elaborate on the proper context relating to these verses with the relevant hadiths? If you are truly honest with yourself you will show us the relevant hadiths to all the incidents mentioned above or will you do what you have done so far and reverse the question?
Who do you think wrote the koran, amended it again and again?
common error prone people...people like you and i
Once again you are missing the point. we were discussing hadith books... but since you are bringing in the Quran.. fine... tell me... in school during exam time... did you ever come across any topic that required no explaination... you just learnt it by-heart... like poetry... or certain history dates... or geographical places... how many times did you have to ... or how long would it take you to memorise say 10 capitals of Europe???...
I don't know what you are talking about, the early muslims were unable to read or write, the earliest koran (150 yrs after the death of Mohammed it must be said) has no diacritical symbols to differentiate vowels, you also couldn't differentiate t's, h's and b's, the diacritical symbols for vowels did not even exist in the calligraphy of the language during the time of Mohammed, (if you are going to ask me for sources, I hope you are aware of the yemeni koran the earliest known koranic fragment) the language and the koran was still being updated right up to the 10th century by the dajjal.
Telling me people who were unable to read or write would produce perfect written copies of a language that was still being developed is pure fantasy on your part.
Let's get straight to the point, where does the stone running away with Moses's clothes contradict the koran?
And
You are dodging the issue by telling me the process is complicated where does the stone running away with Moses's clothes contradict the koran?
a stone is an inanimate object.. a non-living object. it does even move an inch on its own (i am not talking about rolling stones or boulders etc) leave alone running away with anyones clothes... Unless you can bring a verse from the Quran where inanimate objects move as if they have life ... your whole argument is pointless.
Avoiding the question and arguing from silence again, Islam's eminent scholars believe this is the reason why sura 33:69 exists? Do you have an alternative as to why sura 33:69 exists? If you do not have an alternative as to why sura 33:69 exists you are running against the grain, you have an ayat with no reason for it's existence, surely you do not believe God acts like this. Is this your shia school of thought? Having the otherside counteract your own hypothesis when I am coming from islamic doctrine, then do you believe Ishmael was the son Abraham took to the mount? Your koran doesn't mention it, and it doesn't even mention Ishmael's mother "the mother of the arabs", do you believe muslims have a claim to Jerusalem because your koran doesn't mention it, do you believe you have to slice your foreheads once a year to commemorate Ali, or follow your 12 imams because your koran doesn't mention it , do you believe you have to wear white clothes and run up and down marwa and sarfa and cut your hair after circumnavigating the black stone, kissing it and throwing stones at the devil? Since your koran doesn't mention it why do you do it?
[41] Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky, and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth: "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly." They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
Pls explain away the above.
Are you taking a shot at the 95% of islam that is sunni that accepts the hadiths of Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawod...? I read a shia hadith and the isnad included the prophet's donkey, I don't think you are in a position to pass judgement if your eminent shia scholars included a hadith on the authority of the prophet's donkey.
Plz produce this hadith. Seriously.. plz produce it... along with its isnad.. I see that you are totally devoid of manners and decency and respect... i sencierly hope this is just an isolated example of such attitude and it is not a general christian example.
It is a shia hadith in arabic
http://history.al-islam.com/display.asp?f=bdy01288.htm
and translated:
"When Allah opened Khaybar to his prophet Muhammad – may Allah’s prayers and peace be upon him – he (Muhammad) received as his share of the spoils four sheep, four goats, ten pots of gold and silver and a black, haggard donkey.
The prophet – may Allah’s prayers and peace be upon him – ADDRESSED the donkey asking, ‘What is your name?’ THE DONKEY ANSWERED, ‘Yazid Ibn Shihab. Allah had brought forth from my ancestry 60 donkeys, none of whom were ridden on except by prophets. None of the descendants of my grandfather remain but me, and none of the prophets remain but you and I expected you to ride me. Before you, I belonged to a Jewish man, whom I caused to stumble and fall frequently so he used to kick my stomach and beat my back.’
The prophet – may Allah’s prayers and peace be upon him – said to him, ‘I will call you Ya’foor, Oh Ya’foor.’ Then Ya’foor REPLIED, ‘I obey.’ The prophet then asked, ‘Do you desire females?’ The donkey replied, ‘NO!’
So the prophet used to ride the donkey to complete his business and if the prophet dismounted from him he would send the donkey to the house of the person he wanted to visit and Ya’foor would knock at the door with his head. When the owner of the house would answer the door, the donkey would signal to that person to go see the prophet.
When the prophet died, the donkey went to a well belonging to Abu Al-Haytham Ibn Al-Tahyan and threw himself in the well out of sadness for the prophet’s death, making it his grave."
This is what a sunni muslim had to say...
... In al BaSaa'ir al Darajat vol 5, chapter 7, Abu `Abdullah allegedly
stated: "They belong to our Party [the 12 imams] who are dropped a
hint in the ear, and they are also of our Party who are inspired in a
dream. They also belong to our Party those who hear the humming of a
bell ringing like the chain dropped in a metallic basin. They also
belong to us those to whom appear an apparition greater than that of
Gabriel or Michael." According to this:
a. The 12 imams are given revelations from Allah while awake directly
in their ears.
b. The 12 imams are given revelations from Allah in their dreams.
c. The 12 imams are given revelations from Allah with the ringing of
the bell [characteristic of MuHammad's (s) "wahi"].
d. The 12 imams recieve revelations from a being who is greater than
the angels Gabriel or Michael. The Prophet (s) only recieved
revelations from Gabriel much less to say both Gabriel and Michael or
even an "apparition" greater than both of them.
It is more than obvious that the shia`a have placed their imams on a
level higher than not only the angels and the Prophets (as) of Allah
themselves but on a level equal with Allah. No shia`a can dispute this
since this has all been taken from their most reliable sources.
No shia`a on this planet will dispute the veracity of al Kulayni and
his work. Usool al Kaafi is the primary source of narrations for their
distorted sunnah. This is the same Usool al Kaafi which quotes the
donkey of the Prophet (s) as a narrator in a chain of transmission
(isnaad) which al Kulayni declared authentic. It literally says "`an
Himaar ar rasooli-Llah" meaning "On the authority of the donkey of the
Prophet (s)"!
His word and his word alone, nobody heard from allah or jibreel to vouch or substantiate any of his claims, he is the judge juror and prosecutor in his own defense.
What are your reasons for believing the 'prophethood' of this man?
what on earth made those others to believe in his prophethood?
The same reasons how the 12 apostles believed in Jesus.
I am afraid the 12 apostles had a lot to go on than "divine revelations"
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2:
Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and
then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired.
Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
Narrated 'Aisha: Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely.
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 6, Book 61, Number 508:
Narrated Safwan bin Ya'la bin Umaiya: Ya'la used to say, "I wish I could see Allah's Apostle at the time he is being inspired Divinely." When the Prophet was at Al-Ja'rana and was shaded by a garment hanging over him and some of his companions were with him, a man perfumed with scent came and said, "O Allah's Apostle!
What is your opinion regarding a man who assumes Ihram and puts on a cloak after perfuming his body with scent?" The Prophet waited for a while, and then the Divine Inspiration descended upon him. 'Umar pointed out to Ya'la, telling him to come. Ya'la came and pushed his head (underneath the screen which was covering the Prophet ) and behold! The Prophet's face was red and he kept on breathing heavily for
a while and then he was relieved..."
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 4, Book 54, Number 461:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: that he heard the Prophet saying, "The Divine Inspiration was delayed for a short period but suddenly, as I was walking. I heard a voice in the sky, and when I looked up towards the sky, to my surprise, I saw
the angel who had come to me in the Hira Cave, and he was sitting on a chair in between the sky and the earth. I was so frightened by him that I fell on the ground and came to my family and said (to them), 'Cover me! (with a blanket), cover me!' Then Allah sent the Revelation: "O, You wrapped up (In a blanket)! (Arise and warn! And your Lord magnify And keep pure your garments, And desert the idols." (74.1-5)
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 58, Number 170:
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: When the Ka'ba was rebuilt, the Prophet and 'Abbas went to carry stones. 'Abbas said to the Prophet "(Take off and) put your waist sheet over
your neck so that the stones may not hurt you." (But as soon as he took off his waist sheet) he fell unconscious on the ground with both his eyes towards the sky. When he came to his senses, he said, "My waist sheet! My waist sheet!" Then he tied his waist sheet (round his waist).
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 1, Number 4:
Narrated Said bin Jubair:
Ibn 'Abbas in the explanation of the Statement of Allah. 'Move not your tongue concerning (the Quran) to make haste therewith." (75.16) Said "Allah's Apostle used to bear the revelation with great trouble and used to move his lips (quickly) with the Inspiration."...
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 3, Book 27, Number 17:
...So, Allah inspired the Prophet divinely and he was screened by a place of cloth. I wished to see the Prophet being divinely inspired. 'Umar said to me, 'Come! Will you be pleased to look at the Prophet while Allah is inspiring him?'
I replied in the affirmative. 'Umar lifted one corner of the cloth and I looked at the Prophet who was snoring. (The sub-narrator thought that he said: The snoring was like that of a camel). When that state was over, the Prophet...
Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 2, Book 24, Number 544:
...Then we noticed that he was being inspired divinely. Then the Prophet wiped off his sweat...
The choice is either some illness or demonic possession such symptoms have never been seen in any prophet of God.
The fact that he rolled on the floor akin to frothing at the mouth like he was having an epileptic fit is this a sign of prophethood?, complaining of ringing bells, heart palpitations, sweating on cold days, attempted to commit suicide after jibreel attacked him for his crime of not being able to 'read' or 'recite'?
giving a pessemistic view of things doesnt make it so. and you were telling me about sugarcoating.... and what you are doing??? i'd say this is the exact opposite of sugarcoating... call it saltcoating... turing something into a diabolical event. Did you know that shrinks do the same thing??? the problem with your explaination is that you read the relevent lines and re-explained it as to your suiting... how about posting the exact words you read... instead of translating it into your own words??? both you and i read the same lines... yet you explain it with a diabolical source... and i... i with a divine source... so lets just cut to the chase and post the original text. and avoid all this confusion...
Then would you care to show the relevant ahadith related to the context to the verses I have been showing you so far?
Which other prophet in the whole 4,000+ yrs of judaism and christianity exhibited these symptoms?
I dont know....
It seems this is your trademark reply. I have to wonder if you are even prepared to question your faith? are you truly free to question it? if you swallow every doctrine every ayat no matter how immoral without question.
Asking people to leave your house so you can be private with your newly acquired wife which you 'stole' from your son, telling people not to raise their voice above yours and not ask you too many questions because you can't be bothered to keep the facade of your elaborate myths, and giving a prophetic statement of what Peter would do are hardly the same thing.
Asking people to leave your house so you can be private with your newly acquired wife
and i assume you wouldnt mind if i barged into your room ???
surely you do not need revelation from God Almighty just to make people leave your home?
which you 'stole' from your son
proof??? i dont remember the word stole in any narration... so proof plz
I could show you the hadiths but I suspect you will just claim they are lies. So I take it unless you see the word 'stole' from the hadiths written by muslims for muslims you will never believe it?? Why don't you be objective and read between the lines, which son is happy to have his father marry his wife, that is just plain weird.
telling people not to raise their voice above yours
i assume its ok to shout n argue infront of a person who he considers a prophet...
Do you need to blackmail people to listen to you by claiming God told you to tell them? How about the simple logical alternative since you have something to gain by all these revelations, people to leave you alone, not to ask you questions, to give you 5% of booty, that you are simply making it up for you own good.
not ask you too many questions because you can't be bothered to keep the facade of your elaborate myths,
once again proof...
005.101 “Believers, ask not questions about things which if made plain to you may cause you trouble when the Qur’an is revealed. Some people before you asked questions, and on that account lost their faith.” Your koran says if you ask questions you may lose your faith, why don't you read it objectively.
Maudidi in his tafsir said
"The Prophet forbade people to ask questions or to pry into such things"
Bukhari:V2B24N555 “I heard the Prophet say, ‘Allah has hated you for asking too many questions.’”
The tafsir of Ibn Kathir on sura 5 :101 says:
...Anas bin Malik narrated that once, the people were questioning the Messenger of Allah until they made him angry. So he ascended the Minbar and said,
«لَا تَسْأَلُونِي الْيَوْمَ عَنْ شَيْءٍ إِلَّا بَيَّنْتُهُ لَكُم»
(You will not ask me about anything today but I will explain it to you.)... (Leave me as I have left you, those before you were destroyed because of many questions and disputing with their Prophets.)
I ask again are you free to question your faith?
Wait a minute did your koran not claim to have a copy of it in heaven?
Do you honestly believe that God would have written down in a tablet in heaven the petty squabbles of Mohammed and Mohammed alone in the 7th century making it incumbent for the whole of mankind to keep reciting it in masjids for all time or no jannah for them?
Cat and mouse game response : and the Bible contains "Mat 16:22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him [Jesus]" which is recited in churches all over the world for the past 2000 years and will forever be recited...
It seems getting an answer from you on anything is like getting blood from a stone, it is either, it is a forgery, "I don't know" or this role reversal... Have you even read Matt 16:22 in it's context?
Matthew 16
21From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.
22Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"
In light of what you have just said what exactly have you proved? that Peter loved Jesus? and?
Point is... A God-sent man is standing infront of you... who you believe to be a God-sent man... what do you do? shout?
You are jumping the gun, first you would have to prove that this man is a prophet after the God of the christians and jews, if you cannot show me a prophecy from this man he is not a prophet.
Sorry.. no gun jumping here... the moment i said "who you believe to be a God-sent man" sorted out the "first prove he is God-sent" ... so what would you do?
If the man had a revelation from allah that allah said I should divorce my wife and give her to him, and he has no prophecy to his name he is not a prophet, and pls
you do not need religion to be told not to shout in from of anybody dalai lama or Bahauillah, it is simple manners, again Mohammed's utterings has no relevance to the 21st century.
Who did God or angel Gabriel say to "Mohammed is a prophet of God"?
Answer :
Mohammed is the one who is saying "God told me to tell you that I am a prophet of God"
Seems like you answered your own question...
You are making the argument that Mohammed is a prophet because he said so?
Do you understand my question at all?
Who (which other individual other than Mohammed) did God or angel Gabriel say to (this separate third party individual other than Mohammed) that "Mohammed is a prophet of God"?
We only have Mohammed's say so do you not see how self serving this is to Mohammed, he alone can hear God? Absolutely nobody is vouching that they also got a message from God via the angel Gabriel that he is a prophet of God.
When God was speaking to Moses... who else was He speaking to??? Aaron?? but wasnt much later ??? Or how about Noah? Who else heard the message?? which brings us to another important question... how do you define the word prophet? who do you say this person is or that person aint??? according to you (and i assume Christianity as well) Noah or Abraham were not Prophets... so what were they ???
Again avoiding the issue by answering a question with a question...
Didn't God speak to Joshua?
Didn't God speak to Miriam?
Is my question so hard to comprehend?
One prophet predicts another prophet's arrival. God speaks to other people to listen to this prophet, this is synonymous throughout the old and new testaments, where is anybody whatsoever prophesizing that Mohammed would arrive? even in arabia amongst the arabs?, where did allah speak to anybody that Mohammed was coming?, where did allah speak to anybody else during Mohammed's lifetime that Mohammed is a prophet and people should listen to him, who heard anything from allah that Mohammed is a prophet, where are Mohammed's miracles? where are his prophecies? am I to believe the last prophet and seal of the prophets and the best example of mankind for all eternity doesn't even feature a cameo appearance in the dreams or prophecies of all the previous prophets for the entire 4,000+ of prophetic revelations, and does not have a prophecy or miracle to his name, zilch, zero, absolute nothing?
You agree prophets are given revelations from God?
What exactly are these revelations? Could they be absolutely anything whatsoever? like
"A.L.M" or do they make sense? What are these revelations supposed to be?
You agree prophets are sent to nations?
Which nation was Abraham or Noah sent to?
Where is the phantom book of Abraham muslims believed was revealed to him?
Why should I fume? Considering your koran also states that Jesus did do these things, and angels did visit people to vouch for him arguing from a self contradictory stance as this is the mind of someone who is prepared to degrade and humiliate themselves to get one up on the opposition, this is like using the arguments of an atheist against christianity even though those same arguments can be used against your own religion, time and time again I see it from muslims, it is sad to say symptomatic of the mind of a suicide bomber.
the question is not of what we think of them as per the Quran... all that i am saying si based on the Bible...
You are prepared to contradict your religion to gain a point?
Are you telling me you are fuming because I say Mohammed is not a prophet of God?
No. actually it matters not to me... you can say whatever you like... but what does get me worked up is ignorant people making sick comments like some demented persons about Prophet Muhammed. or the Quran... with no solid basis for their statements. all you have provided here are half-truths... or in most cases all false...
I have shown you islamic scriptures to show how I came to such a conclusion, where are your islamic doctrine to come to your decisions e.g rejecting hadiths...?
Is this your faith? to freak out when someone comes to a rational decision like this? and have those people punished for blaspheming the name of the prophet?
Do you honestly want me to be completely rational? How about logical? maybe even scientific??
By all means, apply it to your scriptures.
Your analogy is not correct, I am coming from the stance that John the baptist is an independent prophet who vouched for Jesus
thats fine... but you are missing the point... who vouched for John the Baptist? Coz he quoted some verse from the OT claiming it to be a prophecy for himself? are you really that gullible?? naive??
Again answering a question with a question.
John the baptist was prophecied.
We have the scriptures of where he was prophecied.
Where was Mohammed prophecied?
Which other prophet vouched for him?
John heard from God regarding Jesus
Which follower heard from anyone, God or an angel to vouch for Mohammed?
Can you not answer this simple question? is your trademark reply of "I don't know" not so comforting relating to this issue? Must you answer a question with a question?, or are you like many muslims who are unable and never question their faith due to the implications?
No one vouched for Prophet Muhammed. does that make him any lesser of a Prophet???
If he has no prophecies, no miracles, and no prophet or fellow believer past or present vouched for his prophethood from God then he is a charlatan, a false prophet.
so who vouched for Jesus? John the Baptist? Who vouched for John The Baptist? Jesus? This is what i mean...
This is a logical fallacy, have a read of the old testament, there are plenty more who vouched for Jesus, again can the same be applied to Mohammed?
Oh so the christians are bias in interpreting the judaic prophecies and aligning them to Jesus? What happened to the standard polemic of the christians and the jews corrupted their religious text? because if they didn't then the koran is a sham.
then there is no difference of opinion between a jew and a christian, right??? they agree on everything, right???
Our differences is one of interpretation, on the other hand the muslim indirectly proclaims God has failed by claiming He couldn't protect both his previous revelations to justify the existence of their religion and claim it is following the same God.
Your koran mentions that Jesus is the Messiah do you know why?
ok.. i'll bite.. why?
Again a question with a question...
I do not believe any rational individual would see this in the analogy I am trying to show you.
you mean to say rational christian individual... tell me... is satan able to decieve? is he able to show himself as a bright light to decieve people???
The verse was satan would deceive by pretending to be an angel of light, and yes we could look at it as a prophecy of Mohammed, the being that almost choked him for his crime of "not being able to read" or 'recite' (when we know this is what he is good at) could have only come from satan pretending to be an angel of light.
or how about voices in the head??
Have you heard of mediums, clairaudients, clairvoyants? I believe they are related to the experience Mohammed was having that caused him to want to commit suicide several times, God doesn't have that effect neither does His angels.
the answer to this answers you above objection. If satan was the one decieving Prophet Muhammed... well why cant he be the one shouting out "This is the son i am well pleased with"???
This is what I mean when I state you are prepared to contradict your own religion to get one up on the opposition.
The bias comes from islamic scriptures, the hadiths of Ishaq, Tabari, Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawod, Malik ... that shed light on the context, behaviour and lifestyle of Mohammed, this was not a prophet of God in any way shape or form and no one vouched for him.
No this bias comes from your desire to read selected texts only... which even if someone said is not true... you would dismiss that person and still proceed... as it fits your purposes...
Then by all means show me the correct translation, the correct context, the correct tafsir let's apply rationality to it.
How can you possibly find fault when I show you ayats of Mohammed sanctioning his own personal freedom to commit incest, and you tell me "you don't know why" God sanctioned it, case closed, God is great, with that kind of an attitude how can you possibly find fault in anything Mohammed does?
Because it is not a real fault as you show it to be... i need some solid concrete proof...
So when he ransacked the jews of Khaiber with no hadiths elaborating what their crime to Mohammed was, killed a man by having him tortured and decapitated for not telling him where the money was, then took the man's wife, after having her father, uncle and several relatives killed, raped her while a man guarded the tent then claimed allah sanctioned it
somehow to you it is not a fault, there is some justification for every selfish uttering in the koran just for his own gain? It was a mercy to Safiyah to have her husband, father, uncle and relatives killed and her raped without even letting her mourn for her dead relatives that same day (contradicting his own law of waiting 3 months before consumating a marriage with a widow), and tell me it was a merciful act on Safiyah? If you are prepared to overlook blatant injustices like these then you will never find a fault, you are looking at Mohammed through tinted lenses.
God is no respecter of persons
I went thru the 1st verse... it seems to me the context here is persons concerned with here are not "special persons"
I suggest you show us the context of the verses I have been showing you, before you interpret our scriptures for us.
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It looks like it is one rule for Mohammed and one rule for the rest of the world, pls tell me you are not this gullible?
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Trinity. Plz tell me you are not this gullible?
The standard muslim response when forced to confront their religion is to attack, the trinity is not the problem for a muslim even if you were to take away the whole concept of the trinity you still have to deal with Jesus He is listed almost 3 times more in your own koran than your 'holy' prophet, the problem is very simple, who is the Father of Jesus?
Yea i guess that was kinda lame on my part... my apologies... but when 2 people are discussing a topic.. one always has to come down to the level of the other guy...
who is the father of Jesus? i thought i answered this... anyways here it is again... who is the father of Adam? answer... no one. is it so difficult for God to create a human with out a father? i mean c'mon dude... He made the entire universe...
Do you believe God does things without reasons?
What do you think He did that the jews wanted to kill Him?
Do you know why the jews hated Jesus??? because they were afraid they would lose their grand priesthood privilages...all that power... control.. money etc... gone...
Pls can you clarify where you are getting this from?
not because Jesus said he is god. as a matter of a fact... if i am not mistaken i think there is a verse in the Quran which clarifies this... i'll try to find it... if anyone knows it .. plz post...
Is this a cry for help?
Looks like we are finally making progress
So who made the proclamation for Mohammed that had received it from God?
No one did. which is why i asked how do you define prophet? what are the rules by which one is called a prophet???
and interestingly ... do you think all the early muslim converts were gullible? stupid? brainless twits?? that they would blindly follow some schizo person who rolled on the floor frothing at the mouth???
Suiperstition and myth were prevalent in Mohammed's time, being superstitious in the 7th century no way implies you are gullible, it only takes a hitler a koresh a charmer to make ignorant individuals look very silly by our standards of the 21st century, eg the fly and the antidote on the wings of the fly, satan urinating in one's ear, solomon's army composed of ants and insects, all lined up for no apparent reason.
How much do you know of early muslim history??? the time before Medina?? the Meccan period??? i suggest you look it up...
what was the motivation of all those people who inspite of persecution chose to believe??? i am really interested in hearing your version of the "truth"
Read the hadiths of tabari, Ishaq, Bukhari, Muslim, Abu Dawod, Malik et al, Mohammed was wanted for raiding caravans of the quraish businessmen, the early muslims provided him sanctuary the quraish didn't do business with them unless they gave him up, Mohammed and his less than 20 followers (some say caravan pirates) decided to escape justice (the hijra) to medina, gained converts and the rest as they say is history.
And yours?
Suppose Mohammed was not 'well' many people have said Mohammed was displaying classic symptoms of schizophrenia. Who else was there to vouch for him, if the people are so superstitious to believe a lump between your shoulder blades was proof of prophethood what else could they believe. Mohammed had a problem, in his day rolling around on the floor frothing at the mouth was probably very rare, who knows if the arabs thought you were possessed by a jinn and may want to bury you along with the girl babies, best way out is to tell them you are from God and this is how "divine revelations" manifest themselves.
Could you plz be a little less ignorant... this is not an insult ... because i have already told you the lump story is false.
I am expected to take your word for it that it is false because you told me it is false?
yet you choose to be ignorant of this fact and repeat it time and again.
Do you know more than the muslim historians
who were practicing muslims themselves, who are you to dismiss the work of eminent scholars as not incumbent on you to follow?
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"...Do not hurt me regarding Aisha, AS THE DIVINE INSPIRATIONS DO NOT COME TO ME ON ANY OF THE BEDS EXCEPT THAT OF AISHA..." Bukhari volume 3 Number 755
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False... Lies... satanic deception.
says who?
Do you know more than Bukhari?
or the early muslim historians?
Who are you to say this?
Do you realise all who said, gathered, collected and translated all these were not 20th century orientalists but MUSLIMS
says me.
I am afraid to say this does sound very arrogant.
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If you believe a wife gets upset with her husband because he drank honey you are more gullible than I thought, the only honey your prophet found was between the legs of Mariah!!!
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I expect an apology for this comment... you are out of line... otherwise i will have to report it to the mods....
All I have said can be backed up by islamic scriptures:
no... all you have said is backed by islamic info twisted by your mind to fit your purposes to get one up on the opposition.
Did I not show you the hadith of Bukhari on which two came against the prophet and the reason why they came against the prophet?
"Bukhari vol 3 648 "...The Prophet did not go to his wives because of the secret which Hafsa had disclosed to 'Aisha, and he said that he would not go to his wives for one month as he was angry with them when Allah admonished him (for his oath that he would not approach Maria"
Compared to the LATER account of a wife coming against a husband for smelling of honey, which is the more rational story? I did not make any of this up, this is in islamic history in black and white.
You are sending me an unsubstantiated fairy story, so no it does not answer my question.
oh so what i say is fairy tales and what you say is fact? you asked for Quranic references etc... i gave you one
Why isn't this fairy story of God swallowing Aaron in the earth because he accused Moses of adultery not recorded anywhere in judaism, christianity, or any of the hadiths of Bukhari, Muslim, Ishaq, Tabari? which site did you get this story from? More importantly would you care to show us the link to the tafsir?
From your fairy story Aaron (which I believe islam labels a prophet) was killed by his brother a fellow prophet (Moses) because Aaron accused Moses of adultery?
Then what is Aaron doing in heaven:
Bukhari 5 227:
...
So when I went over the fifth heaven, there I saw Harun (i.e. Aaron), Gabriel said, (to me). This is Aaron; pay him your greetings.' I greeted him and he returned the greeting to me and said, 'You are welcomed, O pious brother and pious Prophet.' Then Gabriel ascended with me to the sixth heaven and asked for its gate to be opened. It was asked. 'Who is it?' Gabriel replied, 'Gabriel.' It was asked, 'Who is accompanying you?' Gabriel replied, 'Muhammad.' It was asked, 'Has he been called?' Gabriel replied in the affirmative. It was said, 'He is welcomed. What an excellent visit his is!'
A question with a question to avoid answering.
Where did Adam come from?
Where did Jesus come from?
Who caused Mary to become pregnant? Who do we assign as Jesus's Father?
, When Jesus says "honour Me with the honour I had ...before the foundation of the world" what do you think He means?
Do you realise from His statement alone He was involved in creating Adam?
Jesus is Adam's Father.
So Jesus is his own father???
No Jesus was God incarnate, what God would do if He was in human form, if the Word of God came in a human body.
so Jesus is the father and the son ahd the spirit?
No Jesus is the Word of God made manifest in human flesh, If God ever chose to send His Word in human form.
interesting... but whats more interesting is Jesus speaking to himself...
Jesus is the Word of God in human flesh, what God would say if He was ever manifested in human flesh.
asking nay pleading with himself to let the cup pass from himself but not his [Jesus'] will but his[Jesus'] will be done. and this is christian logic and rationale???
As I explained earlier, we view Jesus as the word of God, just as a tape recording of your voice is acknowledged in a court of law as if you gave evidence in person right there in the court. Even your koran admit Jesus is the Word of God, why make a mountain out of a molehill? Does God really need a wife to have a Son?
I dare you to show me one prophet from judaism that was not killed because He argued against the worship of false gods i.e idols, are you telling me the jews were not worshipping God during Jesus's time?
Jews wanted Jesus killed for personal gain... not for religious beliefs.
And where are you obtaining this from?
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Thus, the despatch of two messengers was more strengthened by the third from Isa. This refers to the first two, the Holy Prophet and Ali and later Jafar joining them at the instance of Abu Talib, while the Holy Prophet and Ali were praying once in the Ka-bah.
Simon's conduct here indicates the validity of taqiyyah and its proper use.
This is becoming embarassing.
Plz explain.
This is what your tafsir says:
The King, who was a stubborn non-believer, imprisoned those messengers of Isa. On hearing the fate of his messengers, Isa sent another of his disciple Simon who came to the city and pretended to belong to the King's faith (an example of taqiyyah) and gained influence over him. See Acts 11: 16.
This is what Acts 11:16 says:
Acts 11
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
It is obvious whoever wrote that tafsir had never read Acts 11:16 I am still wondering where on earth they read of Simon pretending to a king's faith?
How do you define a prophet?
"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name............................................
so how is Abraham / Noah not a Prophet then? Did they not speak in the name of God? As for Prophet Muhammed.. which of the things he said didnt happen???
Will you ever answer a question?
Why don't you finish reading the quote and tell us what the prophet is supposed to speak.
"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death."
Deuteronomy 18:19-22, 13:1-5
Matthew 7
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
What are the fruits of Mohammed?
Multiple wives sanctioning adultery and fornication, misogynist attitudes to women, sanctioning the rape of female captives, belief that washing arms and ankles washes away sins, using odd numbers of tissues and other obsessive compulsive disorders, indirectly claiming God only listens to arabic, retracting words within a 23 yr span and claiming God did it..
Says who?? plz provide muslim proof where words like rape adultery etc
are used... otherwise... it is just your misguided opinion... which btw is of no importance.
You want me to provide a muslim source that uses the words "Mohammed raped this woman"???
Muhammad once said to his followers: you will see, Allah will soon give you their land, their property and their women to sleep with (Ibn Hisham, vol.II, p.182). Is this clearer?
Then you misunderstand christianity, by your notion of a christian if someone rapes somebody else I should keep quiet and never say a word do nothing not even tell the rapist he has done something bad.
John 8:7
What are you trying to say here?
let me add some more verses for you...
Matt 5:39 But I say to you, Do not resist evil. But whoever shall strike you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.
40 And to him desiring to sue you, and to take away your tunic, let him have your coat also.
Why didn't you read it in it's proper context:
Matt 5 27 Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
I take it you see a literal removal of your eye in this verse?
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Or maybe you see a literal hacking of your own limbs? (Maybe Mohammed heard this verses and took a literal interpretation for them)
38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.
44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.
46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
I find it a bit strange you are unable to see the theme of tolerance against injustice through those verses.
Isnt it obvious??? or you do not wish to see the clear meaning??? only the sin free one can raise a finger at a sinner... are you sin-free??? If you still are a sinner despite the "reborn" thingie then whats the point of it all??? coz if i am not mistaken isnt sin what causes seperation from God... eternally... i think its called death... dead to God... how about the other verses Matt 5:39-40???No retaliation. No back-answering.. no nothing... if someone comes up to a christian and slaps one across his face... he should as per the infallable Biblical declaration from Matt5:39 turn the other cheek. Do you follow this divine order? If yes.. then isnt all of your posts here showing that you are a hypocrite?
Your analogy is seriously flawed. One the verses were taken out of context if you were to read it in context
"Resist not evil" is a well-known Jewish proverb (Ps. 37:1, 8; Prov. 24:19) and actually means, do not compete with evildoers by trying to outdo them in terms of getting back at them. Three examples for the teaching follow: Turn the other cheek; if someone sues you for your cloak, also give them your tunic; if you are forced to go one mile, go two. All three of these things refer to what amount to inconvenient, but nevertheless perfectly legal, impositions on the person. The "slap on the cheek" is a type of personal insult, so that the command to turn the other cheek is essentially a command not to start trading insults, but take the higher ground and turn away from the exchange. It is not, as many Skeptics have supposed, a license to allow yourself to get beat up.
we are in a debate forum, I am not being oppressed, neither of us is undergoing an injustice, I do not hate you, you are not my enemy. My problem is your doctrine, your analogy of a christian is seriously flawed:
Matthew 7
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
With the above verses what do you think a christian is suppose to do with a false prophet like Mohammed, turn the other cheek to his doctrine? Do you realise that the bible says if you know something will lead someone to hell and you do nothing you are just as culpable.
A born again christian will not suddenly be thinking "Hey I think I will go rob the bank today" if that was the sins he used to do before he was born again, but he would be convicted of things many would regard as trifle a bad thought here a bad thought there, which make him just as culpritable as robbing a bank in God's eyes.
once again .. the idealistic view... tell me this... is heaven garuanteed for a reborn christian... example you... are you 100% sure you will go to heaven???
As long as any believer keeps the faith he is guaranteed heaven. Unfortunately not even your prophet was sure he was going anywhere.