Hi Loki..
Stupid, like? learning false christian believes from a self proclaimed prophet six hundreds years after it happend as truth? and sticking by it, while everything proves you wrong in the face of historical, archeological and theological evidence?
no my friend... declaring it already as false closes all doors to discussion... the fact that there is a difference between Islam and Christianity regarding the divinity of Jesus is the reason i come here.. as for the factual evidence provided by christians and muslims supporting their respective claims... well... they all have enuff to support their claims.. eg.. the shruod of turin.. there are the pro people and the anti people.. both give very convincing proofs... it is up to the guy seeking to understand whats right and wats not.
your entire beliefs are based on those hadiths... the sharia law consists 90% of what is in the hadith... as are the rituals of your daily prayer included in that book? why do you use a book full of corruption? why do you let a book that slanders your prophet excist? the muslim world is eager to destroy religious books and doesn't allow western freedom philosophers to be teached... yet it's all up for naming your prophet a pedophile and rapists. as well do large muslim groups like shia's and wahhabi's take great faith in the hadiths... are they not muslims then?
how does the quran is a book that stands on it's own, when it relies for 90% on the hadith for social life... the bible has no need for apocrypha. and stands on it's own. quran without hadith, is as a car without it's engine
You seem to miss my point... hadiths science is not a black and white thingie... it isnt either all right or all wrong.. there is some truth and some falsehood... but i agree with you that if it has false hadiths.. it should be scrapped out.. i do not know why it isnt done... and to behonest with you it is these false hadiths that all non-muslim men quote to support their anti-muslim stance... even if they know that it is considered as false by the entire general muslim community... (ofcourse with a few exceptions... the radicals if i may... who refuse to accept the possibility...) but your assertion that the Quran needs the hadiths is false... without it its an engine-less car.. thats false... it is said that the book is understood by God, His Propeht and those who are knowledgable in it... the 3 category of people , we the shia know, refers to the Holy Ahlul-Bayt... the progeny of Prophet Muhammed. now i know it may seem very far fetched to you... but if one were to study its history and principles etc... one would also agree with it. (i.e. if he is unbiased)
However your 2nd claim that the Bible doesnt need the apocrypha... well.. it is still maintained by the catholic church.. the vatican library still has copies of it.. if it were non-divine ... i seriously doubt the catholic church would keep a copy... it like saying the vatican library contains a copy of The last temptation of Christ... everyone knows this book is false... even the Pope banned it.. so would he have a copy of it?? no.. the other point was the difference in content between the catholic Bible and the protestent Bible... the catholic Bible has 6 (is that number right??) extra books .. and i think its in the OT..
christians had in it's early years problems with gnostic and heretic sects... and myths that were spread around, yet unlike Bukhari we never had one man picking out and compiling what he thought was true and destroying all the others. the canon in christianity happend in agreeance with early church fathers (many people who lived in the first and second generation and heard the traditions directly from apostles or from the apostles disciples, and who could of still contradicted myths if they came into circulation) and over a period of twohundred years (not in the lifetime of one man).
Christians allready sorted out truth from error... at the very beginning. You on the other hand claims that islam teaches truth with error... concerning the hadiths. The same hadiths wich are used in sharia laws and wich define your daily prayers, etc...
which is the reason why trinitarians and unitarians still exist today... and the JW and the Mormons and the catholics and the protestents and the tv evangalists etc... all because christianity was sorted out by the early church fathers 300 years after the comming of Jesus at a council headed by a roman emperor who considered himself a god who supproted the trinitarian cause yet died a unitarian... very interesting history...
if you know wich ones are right, and wich ones are wrong, why don’t you destroy the wrong ones? Why don’t you make perfect hadiths? Instead of leaving all muslims in confusions and doubt concerning verses. And didn’t Bukhari knew what was right and wrong all along? How can the 21th century muslims have better judgement on islam then the early islam fathers?
As i have already stated... bukhari didnt check the authenticity of each and every hadith... he travelled far and wide to get them.. and compiled it. that is it.. as for why does it still exist??? well... if it were upto me i would scrap all false hadiths... but it isnt upto me...
Destroys the hadiths, they are of no need… if you only can use quotes that agree with the quran, then the hadith is of no use... everything is allready in the quran then. And everything that isn’t, isn’t islam. So basiclly your saying to use the quran only... yet then you abolish sharia law, the 5 times prayers and some other vain superstitions in islam.
plz know that not all hadiths are right and not all are wrong... there are some right and there are some wrong.. dont make it a black and white scenario..
Just because the Bible records that people lied, stole, and had numerous wives doesn't mean that God approves of such things. The Bible is an accurate record of what happened in the lives of real people. As a result, the mistakes and foolish choices of people are recorded with honesty.
Is that absurd? No, not by a long shot... what sounds more absurd for example is a prophet bargaining with Allah for daily prayers, and then Moses correcting the greatest prophet Muhammed and sending him back to Allah, because Allah’s judgement is wrong. As if Heaven is one giant bargain market. (on this hadith is what you base your 5 daily prayers)
you missed the point.. your esteemed learned brother in Christ here asserted that the Quran contained certain verses which are of no use ( the word he used was petty squabbles) and these are to be recited at all mosques... my counter was the bible too contains such incidents... which are recited / chanted / recalled at church gatherings etc... are Lots sexual encounters of any significance to the church??? if not then his very same lame argument can be applied here...
That poor excuse of a book is a miracle? By what rule? What does that book do, that no other can or did? Miracles are seen in judo-christian theology, occurences that defy the rules of nature. The quran doesn’t do this.
so according to you a miracle is something magical... like splitting up the red sea or lazarus or david copperfield snapping his fingers and making an elephant disappear... and you say that i am pathetic... i guess when the first guy who invented the cigerret lighter... people considered it a miracle as well.. wow!!! fire from the fingertips... broaden your scope of vision... and you shall see real miracles.
More then 300 prophecies about Jesus make him the most prophecied prophet to excist.
Plus Jesus wasn’t a self proclaimed prophet. Jesus was proclaimed prophet by John the Baptist who was prophecied by Malachi.
Malachi had a prophecy. John the Baptist claimed it for himself. so once again i ask who vouched for John while John was alive??? did you know that prophecies can be interpreted in many ways??? Are you aware of nostradamus?? a french or italian soothsayer... did you know that he too made many prophecies??? which are documented and you can find it at any avg. bookstore... he made prophecies that came true.. is he also a divine prophet??? Oh yea no one vouched for him... but mind you he too had quite a few true future seeings... so does he qualify??
Moses may sound like self proclaimed... yet unlike any other self proclaimed prophet, Moses could proof his divine message with great astonishing miracles. Even escaping the great Egyptian empire at old age, with slaves.
so you agree that there is a possibility of a self proclaimed prophet??? the need for vouching is ... well.. irrelevent.. right?? wel.. doesnt that just change the entire situation??? At first it was .. well.. he has to be prophecised ... someone has to vouch for him... and now it has been reduced to ok..no need for the vouching... he just has to do some great supernatural earth shaking miracle to prove himself.. what next??? no need to have any miracles as well??? this is what i have been trying to say all along... the requirements to be a prophet isnt an exacting science... not all can be categorised in the same class.. there are the prophecised one... and the self proclaimed one.. there are the miracle performers and the non miracle performers.. there are the minor one and there are the major ones... etc...
u should be used to being threatend by now if you read the quran… and how easy is it not to quote the revelations… if you follow Jesus(God), you wouldn’t have to worry about being intimitated by such in the first place. These are warnings concerning the end times, something totally else then forced commandments “give a woman 100 lashes for adulatry this punishment pleases Allah and if you don’t believe this, you’ll fry in hell”.
Isnt it said in the OT that the adultress should be stoned to death??? or did Jesus abolish that law?? when he said "he has no sin can cast the first stone" tell me is this true or not? ok how about what is the punishment for adultery??? or are you gonna say a good christian doesnt commit adultery?? which is the reason i asked liberate ... is there such a thing as a sin free reborn christian??? i assume you too are a reborn christian.. are you sin free since your re-birth? you do not need to answer this... as i am in no position to judge you.. this is a personal reflection question.. think about what i said...
Paul didn’t abolish any laws. The laws were fullfilled by Jesus, not destroyed. The laws are God’s justice system... and the sinners (wich was everyone) had to pay for our transgressions. Yet the judge himself stood up, and paid them for us instead. The law still goes. It’s not because someone payed your punishment for theft, that from now on theft is not a sin anymore
Dude... you are talking of past events only... upto the point in time when one is reborn in Christ... what about after that?? is that person sin-free?? or are his "sins" now called something else??? do you know that as per God's justice system in christianity even a minor trivial sin intentional or otherwise is an infinite sin against God??? wether reborn or not... it still is a huge deal... unless you are saying that ...well.. Jesus paid the price so the later on sins (intentional or otherwise ) will be overlooked???
God is talking in the 3d person, who is talking? Don’t you see the problem here... If the quran as claimed is every letter to be of God, then who is talking? Another example are the numerous verses in wich Allah says: “Inch Allah...”
Is muhammed talking? Then the quran is not the ultimate word of God, cause it contains words of muhammed
Is God talking? Then does God not know what he wills?
seems that you overlooked my response to Suran 17:1... plz read it..
you think it’s very social to invite someone, give him food, and then kick him out without having anything said? If people are annoying, then you don’t forbid them to be... nor should you show to be annoyed if that is the case, since he is your guest and you invited him with all his/her inperfections because you are supposed to like the person you invite!!
If their is one reason why your supponsly allah sent prophet had problems with chit chat, is probably because they discussed religion with him... muslim majorities weren’t around yet, so all people if they invited muhammed had to be pagans, jews and or christians. Surely if they discussed religion with muhammed he’d become in trouble, and be embarrased in front of his followers.... one thing to prevent this, is forbid his followers and himself to talk at meals.
dude.. all that you say is hearsay... wishful thinking.. as i already pointed out... the problem isnt with discussion... i have already stated it.. mindless vain gossip/chitchat is frowned upon... tell me would you like it if you invite your friend and he starts gossiping about other people or starts asking stupid questions??? plz re-read the verses... the stress is laid on vain talk...
Acctually Muhammed was again the only muslim who had this priviledge, if it concerns other muslims they should allow their wifes to be remarried... yet even ‘the prophets’ young wifes if they’d ever fall in love again or wished to have a family were forbidden to have one.
Ok... did any of the OT Prophets' wives remarry after they died? Moses' wife or David's or Solomon's?? or Noah or Abraham or anyoneelse??
how can the devil drive out himself? Theirs a rebutal in the gospels if you ever read this, explaining this. It’s refuted by Jesus himself.
i understand the verses you quoted... its something like satan going against satan... i.e. the divide and conquer rule employed by the western world... anyways.. my point was... if the devil can take possession of one.. cna he not leave also ??
Prophecies
- Miracles
- Exorcisms
- Ressurection
Jesus 4 – Muhammed 0
the muslims revieced prophecies from Prophet Muhammed... eg the roman-persian war... Sura 30:2-4 ... as predicted the roman won later on. despite their initial defeat...
Prophet Muhammed had split the moon in two ref : sura 54...
Certainly not in ways that are demonic, or ways that destroy the previous real word of God. Only a fool or the devil would do such.
You might want to re-think this or re-phrase it... the jews dont accept the NT coz it preaches a triune god.. they consider it to be of demonic origin. the christians like wise saythe Quran is of demonic origin mainly because just as the jews say they say the Quran corrupts the NT. So... what is there to do now??? unless there is a common established method of revelation i'd have to say your assertion is false that the mode of Islamic revelation is demonic.
It’s still his wife, and if it’s a stepfather... it’s like marrying your wife to a stranger. You’d like your wife doing that to any man who proclaims himself prophet? Well i say i speak with divine authority! Don’t ask miracles i don’t have any, just believe me or you’ll fry in hell, and give me your woman!
did you read my post or not? the question was "is a stepson / adopted son the same as biological son? plz answer this.
the trinity is the God of the judo-christian scripture, by denieing this, your denieing that you believe in the same God ! whoever Allah is, he isn’t who he claims he is to be!
Your omniscient God even got the trinity wrong in the quran, he claims we have 3 Gods, that trinity consists out of Mary, Jesus and the holy spirit... you must first begin with knowing that your Allah got trinity completly wrong in order for you to understand it.
The trinity is a simple explenation of One God manifesting himself in three ways. It’s God, the spirit of God, and the word of God. Is this such a hard theological concept for you to get? It’s not 3=1, it’s 1=1=1... simple as that. If you want to learn christianity do it in a sincere way. Ahmed Deedat ain’t gonna learn you christianity my friend.
The trinity is judeo-christian??? you sure about this??? coz i have yet to hear form a jew that he believes in trinity... unless you can bring a jew who says this.. trinity is just christian... jews and christians read the same OT .. yet both come up with different answers... one is monotheistic.. and the other claims monotheism thru trinity... as for the Mary part... are you familiar with the catholic prayer .... i cant remember it all but one line goes like this "Holy Mary mother of god.. pray for us sinners .. now and at the hour of our death"... so ?? what does this 21st century prayer say??? Mary?? is mother of God???
Or will you just discount it as heretic catholic doctrine???
Peter rebuked Jesus because he was afraid to share the same faith Jesus was getting. He was a coward in times of danger. Jesus knew this upfront, since he is God, and knows everything. Sure Peter was one of the most beloved disciples of Jesus and Peter trusted in himself that he was... yes Jesus he knew that Peter still had doubts.
maybe... but fact still stands.. Peter rebuked the son of God!!!!
- miracles
- prophecies
- agreeance with the previous covenant
- also according to OT jewish tradition a prophet needed to be accepted by the sandhredin (obviously since the jews don’t accept jesus, and as read in the gospel, jesus wasn’t accepted, on basis of false accusations, but that’s an issue with jews and not with muslims)
Miracles : Moon splitting in two and the Quran
Prophecies : Roman-persian war
Agreeance with previous covenant : completely in line with Jewish OT
as for Jewish approval... i do not think it is of any importance... as you said.. they didnt accept Jesus.. similarly you do not accept Muhammed on the basis of false accusations...
John 14:26 : Holy Spirit / comforter
I read somewhere a while back.. that the phrase The Holy Spirit was a addition... sorry i dont have the ref right now... but i'll search and post... and it was from a christian site... just incase you were going to blame some muslim or atheist...
“John the baptist was prophecied.“
He claimed a prophecy for himself
Mal 3:1 ... i understand this... but i wish to be obstinate and irrational and illogical.. as some of the members here have shown them selves to be... so.. no one vouched for John the Baptist while he was alive... did anyone hear from a 3rd person that John was the one??? without having ever heard it from John himself??? No.
Dude.. i understand almost everything you have posted to support christianity.. from a christian point of view... most of the stuff makes sense... but only because i keep an open mind to new thought and ideas... did you know that most of the stuff here is old stories to me?? i have read it all before.. and for a christian its al good.. the same goes for Islam.. but i dont know if you will understand this... so i'll just go back to my obstinate behaviour.
Did God say HE would protect the book?? if He did then the extra 6 books that the catholic church has... are they part of the real book or is the protestent version the real deal??
God say he would let the gospel(good news) be heard over the entire world...
And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. -- Matthew 24:14
has he kept his promise or not?
No promise of protection .. the only alleged promise here is that it will be preached in hte world ... (and that too it was said after the death of Jesus.. Jesus himself never approached / preached to any non jew which is interesting) and the part about "and then the end will come".. end?? which end? Judgment day? end of Christianity?? or end of 600 odd years?? obscure verse.. and no promise of protection.... are you aware of the verse where the person who adds even one word will have tons of pain added and one who removes one word will hav tons of good removed... i think its in revelations... dont know the exact number... if there was a promise for protection then there will be no possibility of corruption... the validity f this verse is under question then.. why have a verse for punishment of verse changers???? if it will be divinely protected???
Acctually Paul made one of the most astonishing remarks on Islam before it came into existence.
"...if we, or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed... again... let him be accursed." -- Galatians 1:8-9
Actually he was speaking from experience.. ref : his vision of light or was it sound or was it both???? on the road to damascus.
Yes well many heretics were called to that nicea meeting, don’t seek to much honor in that... cause they discussed theological dispute... and those that were the most in agreeance with the early christian tradition were generally accepted. Arius wasn’t one of the people that got much agreeance with his anti-trinity beliefs and was exiled as a heretic.
which is one of the reasons why there are still unitarians today... did you know that the entire north africa part was unitarian???
Isn’t the quran the word of God? Isn’t it tape recorded on a book? Does this mean their is duality in islam?
Jesus talking to the father, has an entire theology titled the hypostatic union, it's fairly simple to understand if you ever read the gospels... yet i still have my doubts if you did, so i won't bother explaining for now untill i know for sure.
but the Quran didnt become some man-god entity. it is not a living entity. there is a difference between the Word of God changing into Jesus and teh Word of God being written down in a book....
Peace Loki...
Liberate:
Tell me something all the koranic ayats, tafsirs, and hadiths I have given you did I make them up? Did I pluck them from muslim hating orientalists? Did they not come from the early muslims, as to how they interpreted the prophet's example? Are these muslims idiots for believing hadiths, are they gullible? Are they stupid? If you need to hack off parts of your religion, dismiss others, say you don't know to the rest and just accept it so that it becomes palatable, then you will never be free to examine your religion with the objective state of mind you are trying to trick us into believing you already do. Did I not go to muslim sources for the ayats, the hadiths, the translations and summaries?
Everything I have showed you about islam is blatant from the ayats, the hadiths and the tafsirs, you really have nothing to stand on by insulting me for doing just that. If a muslim cannot even question his own faith at the pain of death I can understand where you are coming from.
dude.. you provided single translations of verses you thought suspect.. thats fine. you provided tafsirs and hadiths for these verses.. but the problem with what you gave is .. they are all sunni. I am a shia. i do not follow sunni books. provide shia references from shia books or sites. not anti shia sites or books. its like demanding justification of Jehovas witness from you.. The JW say only 144,000 will be saved... are you one of those 144,000??? if not why??? dont answer this... its a rethorical question... just trying to show you that you are comparing apples with oranges... i do not accept sunni books. you wish to discuss Islam?? i accept only shia sources... otherwise you will have to justify jehovas witness and mormons questions that i will post.
Did I make those ayats, hadiths, and tafsirs up?
What misconception, what exactly have you cleared up? "I don't know" "it is fabricated" "the scholars are idiots..." "there I cleaned it all up...next"
plz provide shia sources.
I am afraid your analogy is completely off the chart, do you or do you not accept hadiths of Bukhari, Muslim,e.t.c? Ofcourse you can always reject them all like you are rejecting the hadith of that donkey to save face.
that is a sunni site... i need shia sources.
What kind of double standards is this? If it contradicts what you deem to be common sense you reject it? You are basically telling us the early muslims had no common sense, am I to believe your shia imams will accept this from you? That you are rejecting the founders of the religious way of life? Where exactly is your shia doctrine to selectively pick and choose what you want to believe?
You want to prove the stone story to me??? fine... two words
SHIA SOURCE
This is how you make your own religion, this is how you create sects, pick and chose just like a pizza topping...designer islam to make it valid for the 20th century mindset.
????
Obviously you feel you are an authority to reject what the founders of your religion said, do you know how many muslims have told me that the stone running away with Moses's clothes was a miracle?
SHIA SOURCE
Couldn't the Ayatollah just issue a fatwa and have you dealt with?
grow up!!! didnt your parents teach you any manners????
You said you are a shia? How do you view the ayatollah is he capable of making mistakes?
Yes.. he is capable of making mistakes.
Then if they are not true, what is the basis for those ayats?
Those koranic ayats have no context, you are biting the hand that feeds you, it is like hacking off the old and new testament and going it alone.
NOT ALL HADITHS (SHIA/SUNNI) ARE 100% TRUE. THERE ARE SOME TRUE AND SOME FALSE
These people have not proven themselves to be authorities on the koran, they are unaware of simple koranic ayats, am I to take it someone who is an authority on islam would respond several times with "I don't know" when you ask them simple questions? Would you believe the individual to be an authority on the koran?
Are your sources Shia??? if not .. well.. why is polygamy allowed in mormonism??
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 08:29 am Post subject:
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What exactly have you been doing with all my posts to you so far? Are you not here as an apologetic to "explain away"/"teach us"/ the embarassing hadiths that give body and context to your religion?
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No.when i joined here... i was interested in knowing more about christianity only. If i wish to learn more of Islam i would go to a muslim site... reading islamic info from a christian site... well what can i say... its stupid.
Tell me something all the koranic ayats, tafsirs, and hadiths I have given you did I make them up? Did I pluck them from muslim hating orientalists? Did they not come from the early muslims, as to how they interpreted the prophet's example? Are these muslims idiots for believing hadiths, are they gullible? Are they stupid? If you need to hack off parts of your religion, dismiss others, say you don't know to the rest and just accept it so that it becomes palatable, then you will never be free to examine your religion with the objective state of mind you are trying to trick us into believing you already do. Did I not go to muslim sources for the ayats, the hadiths, the translations and summaries?
Everything I have showed you about islam is blatant from the ayats, the hadiths and the tafsirs, you really have nothing to stand on by insulting me for doing just that. If a muslim cannot even question his own faith at the pain of death I can understand where you are coming from.
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But when i see people like you bringing "documentary proof" of diabolical origins etc of Islam... i believe it is my right and duty to clear this misconception up...
Did I make those ayats, hadiths, and tafsirs up?
What misconception, what exactly have you cleared up? "I don't know" "it is fabricated" "the scholars are idiots..." "there I cleaned it all up...next"
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When you tell me the hadiths are wrong, being taken out of context, contradict the koran, "and this is the proper context", I would like to see what hadiths you are using to base your evidence, and where it contradicts the koran, quoting me apologetic material written in the 20th century by westernized muslims to make islam seem mild to the west will do you no good, was your religion created in the 20th century?
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Tell me ... would you accept catholic references proving christianity or greek orthodox books or something that you do not believe in but is considered to be christian???
I am afraid your analogy is completely off the chart, do you or do you not accept hadiths of Bukhari, Muslim,e.t.c? Ofcourse you can always reject them all like you are rejecting the hadith of that donkey to save face.
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Simply telling me I reject this hadith because the hadiths are not infallible proves what exactly? That your decision supercedes eminent imams and early muslim scholars who interpreted your religion? Are you an authority on islam? Do you realise all you have done so far is give your word alone that the hadiths are not infallible.?
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No. I do not reject hadiths just because..... i read them.. cross ref them judge them based on the Quran and common sense and logic... and if it fails the test... its a fabricated hadith. so once again (i think this is the 3rd or 4th time i am repeating it) hadith books are not infallable. they can and do contain mistakes.
No doubt when the hadith makes sense and can be used for your own gain you will readily accept it? But if it is a stone running away with Moses's clothes it has to be rejected because it doesn't make any sense to you, the funny thing is the stone running away with Moses's clothes is just a tip of an iceberg that proliferates the reasons for entire quranic verses.
What kind of double standards is this? If it contradicts what you deem to be common sense you reject it? You are basically telling us the early muslims had no common sense, am I to believe your shia imams will accept this from you? That you are rejecting the founders of the religious way of life? Where exactly is your shia doctrine to selectively pick and choose what you want to believe?
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not just sunni but shia as well. the question is which ones are right and which ones are not .... thats where common sense and logic steps in...
This is how you make your own religion, this is how you create sects, pick and chose just like a pizza topping...designer islam to make it valid for the 20th century mindset.
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Altho i am not an authority on Islam...
Obviously you feel you are an authority to reject what the founders of your religion said, do you know how many muslims have told me that the stone running away with Moses's clothes was a miracle?
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i do have a brain. i call it as i see it...
This is precisely what I would like you to do, you would see the majority of koranic ayats to be just as ridiculous as the stone running away with Moses's clothes.
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even if the entire world's muslim priests disagreed with me... i will not step back
Couldn't the Ayatollah just issue a fatwa and have you dealt with?
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. after all they too are mere humans capable of making mistakes...
You said you are a shia? How do you view the ayatollah is he capable of making mistakes?
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Now you play the politician's game you have been playing all along, do not answer a straight forward question, simply reverse the question, you are asking me to give you a document that says the hadiths do not contain any mistakes? Am I a muslim? did I write the hadiths? Were the hadiths not written by muslims, as an example of how a muslim was to model himself?
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call it whatever you like... your opinions are of no consequence of me. It is you who is equating the hadiths with infallibility... you do not need to be a muslim ... you just have to use a lil' intelligence.. people here are telling you that all hadiths are not 100% true...
Then if they are not true, what is the basis for those ayats?
Those koranic ayats have no context, you are biting the hand that feeds you, it is like hacking off the old and new testament and going it alone.
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yet you wish to ignore these people
These people have not proven themselves to be authorities on the koran, they are unaware of simple koranic ayats, am I to take it someone who is an authority on islam would respond several times with "I don't know" when you ask them simple questions? Would you believe the individual to be an authority on the koran?
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and still act ignorant to this fact..
I am afraid your word is not good enough, show me the hadiths and the tafsirs like I have done, then we can move on. (muslims who normally refuse to show me hadiths and tafsirs usually do so because they are in a catch 22 situation) you can scream all you want, I would like to see your religious scriptures as to where you are getting your interpretation for those ayats if the ones I am showing you are lies.
I showed them to you.. and gave links... yet you choose to ignore it and use non-shia sources only to prove it to me... bring me shia sources. if you are man enuff???
Says who? Are you an authority? Those hadiths are narrated through rigorously tested chains to be from the prophet, if you are telling me they had no common sense and/or are liars then by default your proohet has no common sense and/or is a liar because he told these people all these things, the people who told us this also laid out the shariah based on this, an idealogical islamic ruling system, there is no separation between islam and the state, this marriage is only possible because of these hadiths, thousands of them, are you telling me the early muslims were such efficient liars??? If this is the case are you telling me liars wrote the koran? that islamic law embodied in the shariah is full of lies?
SHIA SOURCES!!!!
Unfortunately/fortunately (whichever way you want to look at it) since I do not have the muslim mindset I can't just gloss it over and claim "allah is great" in the process. If you are truly comfortable with your religion you will be prepared to let the world see it in all its beauty, telling me something is false when you are not even prepared to give an alternative as to what you believe is typical of someone who does not know and does not want to be bothered, which I am afraid to say has been your attitude throughout.
Are YOU complaining about MY attitude??? good one!!!!
Quran 38:17 We endued Our slave David with power. It was We who subdued the hills to sing Our praises with him at nightfall. And the birds were assembled, all obedient to him?
Qur an 91:11 Thamud rejected (their prophet) through inordinate wrong-doing. Behold, the most-wicked wretch among them broke forth but the Messenger said? Be cautious. It is a She-camel of Allah! And bar her not from having her drink? But they rejected him as a false prophet and hamstrung her? So Allah on account of their crime, obliterated their traces, doomed them, desolated their dwellings, leveling them to the ground for their sin.
Quran 27:18 At length, when they came to a valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it....
27:18 ....
[Shakir 27:18] Until when they came to the valley of the Naml, a Namlite said: O Naml! enter your houses, (that) Sulaiman and his hosts may not crush you while they do not know.
[Yusufali 27:18] At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."
[Pickthal 27:18] Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant exclaimed: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 27:18]
When Sulayman with his large army of men, jinn, spirits and animals entered a valley where several thousand ants were carrying on their daily routine on the surface of the earth, they at once decided to enter into their holes inside the earth so that they might not be inadvertantly crushed by the hosts of Sulayman.
According to Imam Jafar bin Muhammad as Sadiq there were large deposits of gold, silver and other very useful metals in that valley.
[Shakir 27:19] So he smiled, wondering at her word, and said: My Lord! grant me that I should be grateful for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I should do good such as Thou art pleased with, and make me enter, by Thy mercy, into Thy servants, the good ones.
[Yusufali 27:19] So he smiled, amused at her speech; and he said: "O my Lord! so order me that I may be grateful for Thy favours, which thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may work the righteousness that will please Thee: And admit me, by Thy Grace, to the ranks of Thy righteous Servants."
[Pickthal 27:19] And (Solomon) smiled, laughing at her speech, and said: My Lord, arouse me to be thankful for Thy favour wherewith Thou hast favoured me and my parents, and to do good that shall be pleasing unto Thee, and include me in (the number of) Thy righteous slaves.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 27:19]
As Sulayman was given supernatural powers, he understood the language of the ants and ordered a halt to his hosts till the ants clear the way.
The ant is a very small and humble creature, yet they are given necessary intellect to manage their lives in orderly manner by doing that which is useful and avoiding that which is harmful. In spite of his great kingdom and supernatural powers, Sulayman humbly prays that his power and wisdom and all other gifts may be used for righteousness and for the benefit of all around him.
Awzini actually means-"Make me refrain from all activities save being thankful."
38:17....
[Shakir 38:17] Bear patiently what they say, and remember Our servant Dawood, the possessor of power; surely he was frequent m returning (to Allah).
[Yusufali 38:17] Have patience at what they say, and remember our servant David, the man of strength: for he ever turned (to Allah).
[Pickthal 38:17] Bear with what they say, and remember Our bondman David, lord of might, Lo! he was ever turning in repentance (toward Allah).
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 38:17]
Refer to the commentary of Baqarah: 249 to 251; Anbiya: 78 to 80 and Saba: 10 and 11 for prophet Dawud.
One day two men of Bani Israil came to Dawud disputing the ownership of a cow. Dawud demanded witnesses from the plaintiff but he could not produce any, at which he asked them to come next day. At night, in dream, Dawud was commanded to kill the defendant, but since there was no proof he did not carry out the order at once.
Dawud had this dream for 3 continuous nights and finally ordered the defendant to be executed. The defendant pleaded, asking the grounds on which this sentence was passed. Dawud replied that he had been commanded by Allah through dreams for 3 nights. When the defendant was sure of his death, he finally confessed that he had killed the plaintiff's father and taken possession of the cow. Then, the people, discouraged by the true visions of Dawud, gave up frauds, unfair dealings and evil intrigues and became law abiding citizens. Thus the authority of Dawud in his kingdom was firmly established by Allah.
91:11
See commentary of Araf: 73 to 79 and Hud: 61 to 68 for the people of Thamud who had corrupted their souls as pointed out in verse 10, hamstrung the she-camel appointed as a sign of Allah by prophet Salih to test their faith and belied him as a false prophet.
cross ref to 7:73
[Shakir 7:73] And to Samood (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! serve Allah, you have no god other than Him; clear proof indeed has come to you from your Lord; this is (as) Allah's she-camel for you-- a sign, therefore leave her alone to pasture on Allah's earth, and do not touch her with any harm, otherwise painful chastisement will overtake you.
[Yusufali 7:73] To the Thamud people (We sent) Salih, one of their own brethren: He said: "O my people! worship Allah: ye have no other god but Him. Now hath come unto you a clear (Sign) from your Lord! This she-camel of Allah is a Sign unto you: So leave her to graze in Allah's earth, and let her come to no harm, or ye shall be seized with a grievous punishment.
[Pickthal 7:73] And to (the tribe of) Thamud (We sent) their brother Salih. He said: O my people! Serve Allah. Ye have no other Allah save Him. A wonder from your Lord hath come unto you. Lo! this is the camel of Allah, a token unto you; so let her feed in Allah's earth, and touch her not with hurt lest painful torment seize you.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 7:73]
Akhakum (their brother) does not mean "real brother" but "one of them".
Thamud has often been mentioned along with Ad in the Holy Quran. The people of Thamud are known as the tribe of second Ad who lived in Ahqaf, from Umman to Hadhramawt (Ahqaf: 21). Their prophet and warner was Salih. Their territory included both rocky country and fertile valley of Qura, and the crisis in their history is connected with a wonderful she-camel. They were also, like the tribe of Ad, godless and idol worshippers. They used to worship a part of a mountain and offer sacrifices on it. There was scarcity of water and the arrogant privileged classes tried to prevent the access of the poor or their cattle to the springs, while Salih used to intervene on their behalf (Shu-ara: 155 and Qamar: 28), also they tried to monopolise the pasture, a free gift of Allah as per verse 73 of this surah. This particular she-camel was made a test case (Qamar: 27) to see if the arrogant people would see light and come to reason. On their demand Salih, with the pemmission of Allah, made a she-camel come out from the mountain with a baby camel. It was decided that one day the she-camel would drink water from the spring and on the next day the people would take it. The she-camel, after drinking the water, gave as much milk as the whole town could drink, but in spite of Salih's warning that the she-camel was a sign of Allah and if they let her come to any harm, they would be seized with a grievous punishment, they hamstrung her, and insolently defied the order of their Lord. Consequently they were destroyed by a dreadful earthquake, which threw them on the ground and buried them with their houses and their buildings. Salih was saved by Allah's mercy. There was no survivor. His speech is a warning as well as a reference to the sin and folly of the people who belie the signs of Allah in any time.
Aqa Mahdi Puya says: In verse 74 it is said that the people of Thamud had hewed the mountains to make houses, which shows that they were a nation of architects, well versed in the art of masonry. They also built palaces in the plains as their abodes but used the houses in the mountains after nightfall to protect themselves, and also kept there those among them who were about to die. Professor Nicholson says that according to the monuments found in Madayan al Salih in the mountain-houses the people of Thamud buried their dead. It does not disprove the Quran. Obviously when the sick died they must have been buried there.
You are stooping to absurdity to justify koranic ayats, who do you think Adam's children married?
where is the proof???? or is this just your assersion???
Didn't the entire nation see for themselves who was vouching for Moses?, Aaron, and Joshua? Which miracle or prophecy did Mohammed perform? since you are a hadith rejecter which one will you chose?
Who vouched for Moses?
You are only saying this because at least you are fully aware nobody vouched for Mohammed, noone alive or dead heard a dream a premonition anything whatsoever from God, and yet the man has no miracles, no prophecies, a book he never wrote, he never saw one word of is paraded as his greated miracle (like he had any), yet the hadiths are full of his immoral lifestyle, a false prophet like no other has not walked the planet as Mohammed.
I have already stated this...
By your logic any tom dick or harry who just suddenly claims he is a prophet is automatically a prophet, he doesn't have to have a prophecy, perform miracles, do anything, just proclaim he is a prophet do some good works and ask for booty and viola "To hear is to obey"
I wonder... waht miracles did John The Baptist perform... since he is after all the only one who vouched for Jesus...
It seems my point was lost on you. Let me elaborate on the stupidity of the context:
Quote:
024.001 “(This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.”
Interesting sura what exactly is the historical reference for this sura called the criterion, did allah suddenly manifest it for mohammed to utter after one of his many epileptic seizures or did he just make it up based on the current events happening in his neighorhood of the arabian peninsula, let us see what the sunnah has to say about the creation of this sura:
Tabari VIII:58/Ishaq:494 “Aisha said, ‘When the raid [thats right you heard it right raid not self defence not persecution from the pagans just a simple raid committed ........................
sorry i do not respond to sick demented childish remarks of a person who was taught no manners by his parents... i suggest you re-phrase... or atleast go wash out your mouth with some soap...
Malik Book 36, Number 36.19.17:
Yahya related to me from Malik from Suhayl ibn Abi Salih as-Samman from his father from Abu Hurayra that Sad ibn Ubada said to the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, "What do you think if I find a man with my wife? Shall I grant him a respite until I bring four witnesses?" The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, replied, "Yes."
Sunni sources. i need shia sources.
Would you care to show me the proper hadiths and interpretation of the 4 witnesses now? since obviously my sources are lies?
Sure ... no problem..
[Shakir 24:2] (As for) the fornicatress and the fornicator, flog each of them, (giving) a hundred stripes, and let not pity for them detain you in the matter of obedience to Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day, and let a party of believers witness their chastisement.
[Yusufali 24:2] The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.
[Pickthal 24:2] The adulterer and the adulteress, scourge ye each one of them (with) a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain withhold you from obedience to Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of believers witness their punishment.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 24:2]
Refer to the commentary of Nisa: 15 and 16 to 18; and particularly Bani-lsrail: 32 for the correct meaning of zina (adultery).
The punishment of flogging both the adulterer and the adulteress with a hundred stripes is restricted to unmarried offenders. The punishment should be open, in order to be deterrent. There can be no leniency in enforcing this law because as said in verse 1 it is Allah who has ordained this punishment. As the punishment is severe the proof of the offence has to be beyond all possibilities of concoction. Let not even the slightest shade of falsehood play a part in such cases (see commentary of Nisa: 15 and 16).
Cross-ref to 4:15-16
[Shakir 4:15] And as for those who are guilty of an indecency from among your women, call to witnesses against them four (witnesses) from among you; then if they bear witness confine them to the houses until death takes them away or Allah opens some way for them.
[Yusufali 4:15] If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.
[Pickthal 4:15] As for those of your women who are guilty of lewdness, call to witness four of you against them. And if they testify (to the truth of the allegation) then confine them to the houses until death take them or (until) Allah appoint for them a way (through new legislation).
there... there is no need for any hadiths ... as there is a clear message... bring 4 witnesses...
This is what will happen on judgement day, a prophetic statement nothing to do with threatening one to accept the religion,
How is this not threatening one to be in religion???? Eg : "You will burn in hell.. vipers!!!" hmm why would these persons called vipers burn in hell??? hmm.. could it be because they are not "in religion" as you put it??? well.. i guess i could agree with you on this... the verse isnt threatening... it is an outright declaration... no chance of redemption etc.. these "vipers" will burn in hell... so they might as well carry on with their "religion free lives" talk about double standards....
The info being "this hadith is a lie". I need a little bit more to go on than this.
If you can prove that the stone ran away... i will accept your story... and i am sure you are able to prove it.. .as you do not wish to be labeled a liar here... so go ahead prove that a stone is capable of running away...
My apologies, I did an extensive search in the available bukhari muslim abu dawod and malik hadiths at the usc site did not see the story anywhere, which hadith is this story from? ( I am well aware it is shia hadith where is it from?)
Are you reall this slow?? or just doing it for fun sake??? i already gave you the link atleast 3 times...
www.al-islam.org/quran
which do you see as the more logical explanation for a wife to come against her husband:
I have already answered that... why do you keep repeating the same broken record story again and again??? 2 of the wives of the Prophet had issues... aiasha and hafsa.. so the first time they fabricated the "I smell honey" story.. which hurt the Prophet much... the 2nd time these same 2 women once again resorted to gossip mongering.. which hurt him also... what is so hard to understand??? are you married??? if you came home smelling of female perfume (and thats because you went to buy some for your wife as a surprise) and your wife started berating you .. how would you feel???
Brilliant, so when you ask me about the trinity I can just say "uhm you don't understand it...next" would you accept an explanation like that?
Dude... what is your problem?? you are bringing me sunni hadiths and saying that it is the absolute truth... to me.. a shia.. i accept sunni hadiths as much as you will accept JW's as truly guided christians!!!!!
Please answer the question which is more logical God talking to Himself in the third person, or some possessed human being claiming God is talking to him, why would God be talking to Himself in the third person? where in your koran do you get the idea that this place of prostration is Jerusalem?
THis is a 2 part question... the 1st part... i have already dealt with (however i would also like to add the incident of paul here... did paul reall see Jesus or did he see satan or was he just another delusional person who was high on weed and halucinating??? It hurts doesnt it???
... as for the 2nd part...
ref commentary on 17:1
The mi-raj; is usually dated to the 27th night of the month of Rajab in the year before hijrat. While the Holy Prophet finished his night prayers in the house of his cousin, Ummi Hani, the sister of Ali ibn Abu Talib, the angel Jibra-il came to him with the invitation of the Lord of the worlds to have a journey to the highest heaven. Jibrail first took him to the Ka-bah (the Masjid al Haram) and from there he was taken to the farthest masjid in the heavens. Although aqsa means "the farthest" but most of the translators and commentators confuse this word with the name of Masjid al Aqsa in Jerusalem. Farthest is an adjective used to refer to the masjid in the most distant heaven. The distance between the Masjid al Haram and the Masjid al Aqsa in Jerusalem is not more than a few hundred miles which cannot be described as farthest. Moreover, the journey to Jerusalem was meaningless when the divine purpose was to show the Holy Prophet the wonders of the glory of the kingdom of Allah. If Allah had selected an earthly place to do this He could have chosen the Masjid al Hama.
so your assertion that this place is jerusalem is false...
Which other prophet needed divine revelation asking people to leave his house?
are you saying that all the people throughtout history had impeccable manners??? until the comming of Prophet Muhammed??? i already told you some of these people had mo manners... and being a Prophet he cant just reprimand anyone for his personal benifit... until there is a divine message!!!
I see only parts of the koran is relevant?
Where are you gettting this teaching from?
Is there a shia source where I can verify that this is what your shia sect believe? or are you a lone pariah?
I get the feeling you are making it up as you go along.
man... tell me... in the OT its said that an adultress has to be stonned to death... is this relevent to all or just the adultress??? once again typical christian double standards....
Fabrication
"I don't know"
"Look at this in the bible"
Translation error.
in other words you have nothing relevent to say... typical muslim hater attitude...
Ok now you have something you are certain of, pls show us the hadiths of the early muslims at the time of Mohammed showing they were literate?
First you need to show that these ppl were illetrate!!!.. since you asked first you need to prove you question... it like my saying ... "paul was gay... prove that he wasnt" do you understand the absurdity of your stupid comments???? Paul never married... no woman in his life... not even a minor fling... i'd say he was gay!!!. prove me wrong!!! no.. "this is a lie" will not work.. as you have been to adamant to my posts... ofcourse i am an idiot... who knows nothing and am makingit up as i go along... but you.. you are intelligent.. be the bigger man and prove that paul was not gay!!! show me a verse that he had sexual relationship(s) with a woman (women).... be the bigger man dude!!!
Oh and to the Mods... in case you are thinking of banning me for blasphemy... i suggest you read this intelligent great christian's words first...
The archaelogical evidence from Gerard Puin disagrees with you.
Does purin say his works are a fact or theory?? coz if i am not mistaken he used the words theory... Thanks H2O.. thanks for the info bro!!!
Again the archaelogical evidence disagrees with you, the earliest koran can only be traced to 150 yrs after the death of Mohammed, and it has no diacritical marks to distinguish vowels, or b's, t's and h's.
*sigh*
Your say so you understand is insufficient, I am coming from islamic doctrine you could at least show me the same courtesy.
you are debating apples and oranges... i showed you everything... learn to read.
If it is not in the koran you won't accept it? yes?
Why do you do all the above they are not in the koran?
what happened??? couldnt come up with something more inetersting?? that you had to use your trump card??? sorry dude... but even you trump card is worthless... i have repeatedly told you ... some hadiths are true some are false.
The tafsir verifies the context above and it still states they come willingly they have a mind to not come or not to come, again you are giving more intelligence and credit than the context suggests.
fine
your donkey story...
guess what... because i couldnt read arabic.. i accepted the translation you gave... however i got it translated today... and you know something.. he said the very first 2-3 words in the hadith say this is a false / fabricated hadith which is interesting... as you seemed to skip these words in your translation... so much for your status of "the truthful" .... so once again i have proved you to be a liar...
It is commendable you are willing to admit you don't know, since you don't know why are you defending the indefensible?
would it be possible for you to learn some manners???
Again the question is not answered.
Yes it is... since you are sooo good at reading betw the lines... read!!!
You are giving too much spiritual significance than the context suggests.
I do not see any relationship with predestination, I see a man who is confronted like a trapped animal and wants a get out of jail clause.
no i am not.. it is you who is giving a twisted sick meaning to something that is absolutely beautiful.
Jesus told Peter and the rest of the disciples He would be taken captive and suffer, Peter said no we will not let this happen, Jesus rebuked Peter by telling him this must happen.
Peter said no??? let me remind you the words ... "And Peter rebuked Jesus" what is the meaning of rebuke???
rebuke —v. (-king) express sharp disapproval to (a person) for a
fault; censure. —n. rebuking or being rebuked. [Anglo-French]
a lowly man rebuking a god??? is this the christian message???? is this what the Bible teaches ??? thank God i am not a christian!!!!
Am I to believe you are prepared to contradict your own religion to get a point?
Imagine this scenario I see a muslim and an atheist arguing, the atheist argues that there is no such thing as gods, for all he cares there might be a pink unicorn, he claims mohammed was swindling and lording it over the arabians, I laugh and side with the atheist knowing full well that his arguments can equally be used against me. A christian does not have to stoop that low.
So you agree that the Quran that you are using to support the divinity of the Bible is also divine???
Precisely what I am talking about, you are now undermining the prophet hood of John even though your koran says he is a prophet, do you think we christians would agree that Paul is a devil just to gain an inch? with a hindu or a Bahai or a Hare Krishna??
Once again you have proven you do not know the ethics of debate... i cannot prove the bible using the Quran to a christian... i can only prove the Bible using the Bible... irrelevent of what The Quran says...
They witnessed a man undergoing an 'epileptic' fit.
and the companions of paul witnessed satan taking a form of an angel of light...
I believe this has already been shown to you,
It is interestng how irratating it can be when someone is obstinate... "No.. you didnt prove it... prove it... But i did.. read up... No.. prove it again"
It was a question, seeing the standard of your other replies I guess it was asking too much.
No.. plz teach me... i wish to know... or is it that you have no answers???
You want proof that Mohammed wanted to commit suicide? What type of a muslim are you if you are unaware of this?
proof plz...
What good does it do you being this irrational?
You know perfectly well your koran says John is a prophet.
Why are you ridiculing your own beliefs to get one up on the opposition?
Do you think christians are proud to argue against non christians that "Paul is a devil", this is exactly what you are doing "my beliefs be damned, the devil was talking to John..." I am sad to say this attitude of degrading your own beliefs to gain an inch is symptomatic of a suicide bomber, blowing yourself/your beliefs to bits to gain what?
Anybody reading this thread will know this is a desperate tactic, I understand Saddam's own relatives gave him up, and now you are making an argument that John the baptist was demon possessed even though your koran claims he was a prophet, could this behaviour of
cutting the hand that feeds you notorious only islam?
Why are you taking Quranic support??? Isnt it demonic in origin??? i believe in the devil... and all that.. why are you taking support of a book you call demonic????
Do you know how many muslims have told me the stone running away with Moses's clothes is a miracle?
Are you trying to tell me your eminent imams and scholars who recorded this sayings didn't have common sense? Then by default the rigorously tested chain of narrators also didn't have common sense, and since they claimed to have got this information from Mohammed himself, then he doesn't have common sense.
Do you realise the logical fallacy of an argument you are making?
That the founders of your religion incorporated lies into islamic doctrine Without these islamic doctrine there is no shariah law, the rules and regulations that governs how a muslim behaves goes out the window because the hadiths give us these laws, following the example of Mohammed himself, you forget there is no separation between religion and state in islam, the two are