Christian/Muslim ThreadsWhat qualifies Muhamad as a prophet ?Goodmorning Liberate... How are you??? all well i hope... were any of these people from God?? i.e. did God reveal to them that Jesus is how he is?? as far as i know... and read.. all these people heard from Jesus and repeated it. eg... Jesus said that he is from God.. so the people said Jesus is from God... you understand??? for one person to confirm the other .... the 2nd person has to get his source from anyone not in contact with the first person... However if this is the criteria for confirmation of Prophethood... there was Ali... son-in-law,cousin,brother and enforcer of his last will... there was his daughter, then there were the 3 khaliphas... all these persons confirmed his Prophethood... but i know you will discount every single one of these... but you need to know that the people you provided can also be discounted as you discount these... so once again .. how do you know that Jesus is who he claims to be?? Just because lazarus said so? or the disciples said so? if yes... then Ali and Fatima and many other said Prophet Muhammed is who he claims to be. actually no one... as far as i know.. but then again who heard God say Jesus is who he is??? i am not trying to avoid the question... just showing you the fallacy of your line of argument... Same as before... Moses-Aaron??? Muhammed-Ali... Johnthe Baptist-Jesus?? Muhammed-Fatima... Jesus vouched for John?? Dude.. .isnt this circular reasoning??? Seal of Prophethood.... i read the hadiths you provided.. however i must say that these are false narrations... the seal of prophethood means an end of the chain of Prophets... it is a metaphorical phrase... Just like son of God. ofcourse to you son of God is a literal phrase... but to me its a metaphorical phrase... also i doubt any muslim will agre with this hadith... all will say its false... if you remember i mentioned that hadith books are not infalliable... First of all.. if you read the verse you will realise that the prohibition still stands... one cant marry the persons mentioned above... as it amounts to incest... however... God allowed it for Prophet Muhammed.. why??? I dont know.. but i would like to point out that despite the allowance of such a marriage... well.. did he?? Before you say anything i have to say that i am not an expert in history... maybe he did.. but i do not know of it.. so if you do then plz post it... otherwise... i dont see any problem here... Just because i know how to pick a lock does not make me a thief.... similarly... altho the exception was there did he do it??? if not then there really isnt much for one to say... or to attack his character... I mean ... if he "invented" this verse... then did he follow through with it??? i.e. implement it??? plz share... Yes i am aware of the context... however i doubt you are... story goes as follows... some of his wives started making "noise" ...complaining .. you know...normal woman things... gossip n stuff... now if you read the before verses i.e. 66:1-6 you will know that these verses are a reprimanding... the wives "rebeled" against the Prophet... and these verses were revealed scolding those perticular wives.. Zechariah : sorry .. i dont know which person you are refering to... maybe you could clarify a bit.. or post the relevent verses for him... thanks as for John the Baptist... i couldnt find any verses where he is in conversation with God... as a matter of a fact.. even an angel of God.. like Gabriel... and Mary and Mary Magdalene and Joseph... Once again it wasnt God.. or the holy spirit... but Gabriel who spoke to them... who also spoke to Muhammed... So... is there any one else??? other than the underage wife insulting part... i dont see any thing new... none of the names you provided with spoke to God per se... once again ... any other names?? As for the Safiyah incident and the raids... i dont have all the info yet.. but let me check it up and i'll post later... this is not a cop out... ok... i'll post the incident... it is lengthy... The Holy Prophet used to drink a glass of honey-syrup whenever he visited the apartment of Zaynab. A-isha and Hafsa became resentful, and A-isha devised a plot. Knowing the Holy Prophet's dislike of unpleasant smells she held her nose when he came to her apartment after drinking a glass of honey-syrup prepared by Zaynab, and accused him of having eaten the produce of a very ill-smelling tree. When she accused him of having eaten maghafir (a nauseating herb) the Holy Prophet said that he had taken only honey. She said: "The bees had fed on maghafir." When he visited Hafsa she also acted just like A-isha. Displeased with their obnoxious behaviour the Holy Prophet vowed not to eat honey any more. This is recorded by Bukhari in his commentary on Tahrim, in his Sahih, Vol. 3, p. 136. In the same place are recorded several traditions as related by Umar bin Khattab stating that the two women, A-isha and Hafsa were insolent and haughty towards the Holy Prophet. On a day assigned to Hafsa, when she was not found in her apartment as she went to her parent's house, the Holy Prophet spent the night with Marya, the coptic girl, presented to him by the ruler of Egypt, who became the mother of his son, Ibrahim. To calm the quarrelsome bad temper of Hafsa he vowed that he would have no more to do with Marya. The wives of the Holy Prophet were expected to show a higher standard in behaviour, as they were in the company of the superior most teacher of manners, social behaviour and etiquette. The Holy Prophet's mind was sorely distressed by the obnoxious behaviour of A-isha and Hafsa and he renounced the society of his wives for one month. Verse one was revealed to say that as Allah has allowed him honey and Marya, he did not have to forsake any of them. If any vow prevents from doing good or acting rightly one should expiate the vow, but not refrain from doing good deeds. For the expiation of oaths and vows see commentary of Ma-idah: 89 and for the vain oaths and vows Baqarah: 225. Verses 3 to 5 refer to A-isha and Hafsa who were envious and jealous to the point of sickness against the Holy Prophet's refined and highminded wives. Once Hafsa came to know about a very personal matter concerning the Holy Prophet which he thought should not be made public, therefore he asked her not to publish it. But she at once rushed to her friend A-isha and whispered to her a version which was in great part untrue. Hafsa who betrayed confidence and A-isha who encouraged the betrayal were commanded to turn in repentance to Allah. If they were to resist repentance and amends, they would be abetting each other's crime but could not harm the most perfect messenger of Allah whom all the spiritual forces always surrounded to protect from every type of slander and falsehood. Please refer to Kanz al Ummal, vol. 6 p. 294 and Ibn Sad's Tabaqat, vol.8, p. 115. so you see... it isnt as how you portray it to be.... this is only because of the anti islamic literature yu read... I never cop out... if i do not know something i say so.. as for this verse ... the Imran spoken of here is not the same Imran as Moses' father... but Mary's father... plz read this... An extract from Burckhardt's lectures on Syrian church is quoted below: Devotees to the temple in the Jewish creed remained as recluses, cut off from worldly life, and practised celibacy. Imran the father of Mary (the mother of Jesus) seems evidently to be of priestly descent. This factor is borne out from the vow which his wife makes about her issue in her womb to dedicate it to the service of God. It is reasonably considered that it is possible that because of the vowful will of his grandmother that her issue be dedicated to God's service, i.e., as a devotee to the temple, Jesus adopted the ascetic mode of life. Otherwise he had great respect for married life. Aqa Mahdi Puya says: The word imra-at means wife when related to a personal noun, but alone it means a woman. In this verse it is related to Imran, therefore, means wife of Imran. As usual, to create confusion and deny miracles associated with the prophets of Allah, the Ahmadi commentator has translated imra-at as "woman" in order to twist and obscure the meanings of the words of this verse. There are three persons named Imran: (1) The father of Musa and Harun. (2) The father of Maryam (grandfather of Isa). (3) The father of Ali, the paternal uncle of the Holy Prophet, known as Abu Talib. Imran, the father of Maryam, is referred to in this verse, not Imran, the father of Musa and Harun. There is a long period of time between Musa and Isa, therefore, some of the Christian scholars wrongly conclude that the Quran and the Holy Prophet (God forbid) made a mistake by stating that the mother of Maryam is the sister of Musa. The Holy Prophet knew well that between Musa and Isa there were several prophets of Allah- Dawud, Sulayman, Yunus, Zakariyya, Yahya. Isa was the last prophet of the children of Israil, after whom none was sent as a prophet of Allah save Ahmad, the Holy Prophet himself. so this is the explanation... it is a misunderstanding on the christian scholars part to confuse between the two.. it is neither... the stone running away is false... no corruption or misinterpretation... just outright false... btw did you know there is another hadith like this... the angel of death comes to take Moses .. and Moses doesnt want to die so he slaps the angel sooo hard that his eyes pop out... and is permenantly disfigured... the angel goes back to God complaining about the treatment he got from Moses...etc... do you honestly believe such an event happening??? i dont... and a person who says it did is a liar... oh and btw abu huraira is a liar as well. if you see a hadith and you see the name abu huraira in it.. just discount it as false. by his own admission he said that he related hadiths to fill his own never ending bottom less pit of a stomach... But you know something... it is because of these and other like stories that Islam has been given such a bad name... did you know that the Prophet had just died and already the power hungry "devoted" companions left the dead body and sought to elect themselves as new leaders??? Do you think such people are justified as being called righteous??? no.. i dont... i know there have been a lot of "wrong" people in the history of Islam... but one thing i know for sure... the Islam taught by Prophet Muhammed is true... it is only a matter of weeding out the false pretenders... the hypocrites... and mind you there are many... even more than in christianity... for the sole reason of parentage... if this woman who has more than 1 husband... has a son... whose son will it be??? the 1st man's?? or the 2nd man's??? how will the inheretance reach him? who is the real father? OTOH every child knows who its mother is... there is no denying that... but selecting the real father from a multitude??? well.... Hope that answers your query... its exactly as i said... can a husband rape his wife??? what is the meaning of rape?? rape1 —n. 1 a act of forcing a woman or girl to have sexual intercourse against her will. b forcible sodomy. 2 (often foll. by of) violent assault or plunder, forcible interference. —v. (-ping) commit rape on. [Latin rapio seize] but the 1,000,000$ question is ..... can a husband do it??? True... i agree with you here... Jesus a messanger/prophet of God. He relayed the message... no questions here... but the problem that comes is when this "tape recorder " is considered as eternal and seperate from God and yet is God at the same time... do you understand my confusion??? no offence dude... you think trinity makes sense... good for you... hopefully it will make you a better person... and i will be very happy for you... but fact is ... top notch christian scholars themselves admit thisis a mystery that cant be explained... and we all know the reason why it cant be explained... but that is not the point of this thread... any ref plz?? hitler ... yes... david koresh?? i dont know him.. i read an atricle of some guy in the US who built a pyramid and stuff... is he the same person??if yes... then he too is a false prophet... no it doesnt... if i see some thing wrong i say it... as for Muhammed making mistakes (sin) well... upto a certain point yes he can make mistakes (sins)... but that will be at the starting point of one's search for the truth... and slowly all these "mistakes" will be cleared out as false accusations... Tell me... did Moses raise anyone form the dead??? Did Jesus bring any plagues???or did he kill the first born of every egyptian??? or roman for that matter??? point it... different ages had different requirements... What was Abrahams miracle??? who decided on making him a Prophet? i mean if supernatural events are the judging cretria for prophethood the what did Abraham do? or Noah? or David? etc??? During Moses' time magic was prevalent... so how do you counter magic? with more magic... hence the staff to snake conversion During Jesus' time health was more prevalent.. magic was no where to be seen... no one went around turning sticks to snakes... people were dying of sickness.. so miracle is relevent to health... raising the dead. healing the sick..etc... During Muhammed's time elequoence was prevalent.. language.. poetry.. etc.. a person who could recite good poetry was considered great then... the pagans of arabia back then were not concerned with magic or health issues... linguistic elequoence was the "happening" thing... these people were experts in linguistics... and the only way to "show them" was to give something even more beautiful than what they could come up with... and interestingly enuff... no one could even try to get close enough to the beauty of the Quran... that is why it says... if anyone can even come up with just 1 verse better than this... then do it... they couldnt ... they who were experts in this field... they tried and gave up... none could bring a book like it... hence it is a linguistic miracle... Just as a side note... how many of Jesus' or Moses' miracles are here to day to confirm that it did happen? none... lazarus died again. the red sea is where it is... but if the parted section were visible today like back then ... well its a different story... point is miracles came served their purpose and went... the same with the Quran... it came .. it is serving its purpose and it will go away one day... that when Judgment Day will come... the end of the world... The poit is christianity says be tolerance... got slapped on one cheek give the other for slapping as well... this is what i meant by which rules you follow... if the above is true... then there shouldnt be any animosity from a christian. peace and harmony will be prevalent... but from your posts it clearly shows that tolerance is not one of your attributes... True... in an ideal utopia type world absolutely true.... but how many christians do you know who have not sinned even once after their re-birth? from 33AD till now 2004AD?? its getting late here... i'll respond to the remaining on saturday... Take care my friend... Peace Ali |
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