Christian/Muslim ThreadsWhat qualifies Muhamad as a prophet ?assalaamu alaikum alifaia
alifaia wrote:i do not know what your view is of bukhari and muslim etc ... for me.. they are not divine books... altho they are called sahih (true) it still is man made... it is written by common men... events they heard from other common men... who are fallible... so everything in them cant be taken as the absolute truth... it is a proven fact that quite a bit of info in them is false... the hadith books that it... i being a shia dont believe init 100%.. as a matter of a fact even the shia hadith books like al-kafi etc are not 100% gauranteed... Having said this... the first thing i am sure that will pop up in your mind is "then how do we know which is right and which is not"... the way the scholars do it they judge the hadiths against the Quran .. and not the other way... i.e. using the hadith to confirm the Quran...
I am not shia, but brother there are countless times I have told Liberate this . Just about on ever thread we went at it he brings up hadeeth and while we are using Quran, in which I have told him if the hadeeth contradicts Quran it will be rejected, or will need to be interpreted with the Quran not the other way around.
Liberate Wrote:
Who on the underhand heard from God that Mohammed is from God? show me one person who could vouch for Mohammed?
alifaia response:
actually no one... as far as i know.. but then again who heard God say Jesus is who he is??? i am not trying to avoid the question... just showing you the fallacy of your line of argument...
I would like to add to this with the following what Jesus according to them said:
John 5
36 But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Wow it feels like I travels back into time...lol
Q. 66: 5.
"It may be if he divorced you (all) that his Lord will give him instead of you, wives better than you, Muslims (who submit to Allâh), believers, obedient to Allâh, turning to Allâh in repentance, worshipping Allâh sincerely, fasting or emigrants (for Allâh's sake), previously married and virgins.
Liberate wrote:
I sincerely hope you are aware of the context of this verse, it is embarassing for a muslim.
alifaia responded:
Yes i am aware of the context... however i doubt you are... story goes as follows... some of his wives started making "noise" ...complaining .. you know...normal woman things... gossip n stuff... now if you read the before verses i.e. 66:1-6 you will know that these verses are a reprimanding... the wives "rebeled" against the Prophet... and these verses were revealed scolding those perticular wives.....
....ok... i'll post the incident... it is lengthy...
The Holy Prophet used to drink a glass of honey-syrup whenever he visited the apartment of Zaynab. A-isha and Hafsa became resentful, and A-isha devised a plot. Knowing the Holy Prophet's dislike of unpleasant smells she held her nose when he came to her apartment after drinking a glass of honey-syrup prepared by Zaynab, and accused him of having eaten the produce of a very ill-smelling tree.
Brother, I thought this was one of my old posts....lol. Wow..now he is trying the same technique on you. Let go back to the past.
Quote:
About Surah 66: 1-4
Muslim Book 009, Hadith Number 3496-3497.
------------------------------
Chapter : Atonement is essential for one who made his wife unlawful for himself without the intention of divorce.
'Aisha (Allah be pleased with her) narrated that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) used to spend time with Zainab daughter of Jahsh and drank honey at her house. She ('Aisha further) said: I and Hafsa agreed that one whom Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) would visit first should say: I notice that you have an odour of the Maghafir (gum of mimosa). He (the Holy Prophet) visited one of them and she said to him like this, whereupon he said: I have taken honey in the house of Zainab bint Jabsh and I will never do it again. It was at this (that the following verse was revealed): Why do you hold to be forbidden what Allah has made lawful for you... (up to). If you both ('Aisha and Hafsa) turn to Allah" up to: "And when the Holy Prophet confided an information to one of his wives" (lxvi. 3). This refers to his saying: But I have taken honey.
...
This is the hadith on the link I gave you
Quote:
Bukhari vol 3 43 648:... The Prophet did not go to his wives because of the secret which Hafsa had disclosed to 'Aisha, and he said that he would not go to his wives for one month as he was angry with them when Allah admonished him (for his oath that he would not approach Maria)
What do you think is happening here? which is the more logical hadith? Is this to do with a literal honey? or a cheating husband. What is the context of approach in this hadith? Remember the verses "approach your wives when and how ye will" .."do not approach them till they are clean".
Here we go again. The secret is that the two wives played a trick on the prophet with the honey in which the prophet had prohibited for himself in which 66:1-4 was revealed. And yes let us look at that half edited hadith you posted in it actual context that you have never read before except what has been dictated to you.
Bukhari Volumn 003, Book 043, Hadith Number 648.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas : I had been eager to ask 'Umar about the two ladies from among the wives of the Prophet regarding whom Allah said (in the Qur'an saying): If you two (wives of the Prophet namely 'Aisha and Hafsa) turn in repentance to Allah your hearts are indeed so inclined (to oppose what the Prophet likes) (66.4), till performed the Hajj along with 'Umar (and on our way back from Hajj) he went aside (to answer the call of nature) and I also went aside along with him carrying a tumbler of water. When he had answered the call of nature and returned. I poured water on his hands from the tumbler and he performed ablution. I said, "O Chief of the believers! ' Who were the two ladies from among the wives of the Prophet to whom Allah said:
'If you two return in repentance (66.4)? He said, "I am astonished at your question, O Ibn 'Abbas. They were 'Aisha and Hafsa." Then 'Umar went on relating the narration and said. "I and an Ansari neighbor of mine from Bani Umaiya bin Zaid who used to live in 'Awali Al-Medina, used to visit the Prophet in turns. He used to go one day, and I another day. When I went I would bring him the news of what had happened that day regarding the instructions and orders and when he went, he used to do the same for me. We, the people of Quraish, used to have authority over women, but when we came to live with the Ansar, we noticed that the Ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the Ansari women. Once I shouted at my wife and she paid me back in my coin and I disliked that she should answer me back. She said, 'Why do you take it ill that I retort upon you? By Allah, the wives of the Prophet retort upon him, and some of them may not speak with him for the whole day till night.' What she said scared me and I said to her, 'Whoever amongst them does so, will be a great loser.'
Then I dressed myself and went to Hafsa and asked her, 'Does any of you keep Allah's Apostle angry all the day long till night?' She replied in the affirmative. I said, 'She is a ruined losing person (and will never have success)! Doesn't she fear that Allah may get angry for the anger of Allah's Apostle and thus she will be ruined? Don't ask Allah's Apostle too many things, and don't retort upon him in any case, and don't desert him. Demand from me whatever you like, and don't be tempted to imitate your neighbor (i.e. 'Aisha) in her behavior towards the Prophet), for she (i.e. 'Aisha) is more beautiful than you, and more beloved to Allah's Apostle.
In those days it was rumored that Ghassan, (a tribe living in Sham) was getting prepared their horses to invade us. My companion went (to the Prophet on the day of his turn, went and returned to us at night and knocked at my door violently, asking whether I was sleeping. I was scared (by the hard knocking) and came out to him. He said that a great thing had happened. I asked him: What is it? Have Ghassan come? He replied that it was worse and more serious than that, and added that Allah's Apostle had divorced all his wives. I said, Hafsa is a ruined loser! I expected that would happen some day.' So I dressed myself and offered the Fajr prayer with the Prophet. Then the Prophet entered an upper room and stayed there alone. I went to Hafsa and found her weeping. I asked her, 'Why are you weeping? Didn't I warn you? Have Allah's Apostle divorced you all?' She replied, 'I don't know. He is there in the upper room.' I then went out and came to the pulpit and found a group of people around it and some of them were weeping. Then I sat with them for some time, but could not endure the situation. So I went to the upper room where the Prophet was and requested to a black slave of his: "Will you get the permission of (Allah's Apostle) for Umar (to enter)? The slave went in, talked to the Prophet about it and came out saying, 'I mentioned you to him but he did not reply.' So, I went and sat with the people who were sitting by the pulpit, but I could not bear the situation, so I went to the slave again and said: "Will you get he permission for Umar? He went in and brought the same reply as before. When I was leaving, behold, the slave called me saying, "Allah's Apostle has granted you permission." So, I entered upon the Prophet and saw him lying on a mat without wedding on it, and the mat had left its mark on the body of the Prophet, and he was leaning on a leather pillow stuffed with palm fires. I greeted him and while still standing, I said: "Have you divorced your wives?' He raised his eyes to me and replied in the negative. And then while still standing, I said chatting: "Will you heed what I say, 'O Allah's Apostle! We, the people of Quraish used to have the upper hand over our women (wives), and when we came to the people whose women had the upper hand over them..."
'Umar told the whole story (about his wife). "On that the Prophet smiled." 'Umar further said, "I then said, 'I went to Hafsa and said to her: Do not be tempted to imitate your companion ('Aisha) for she is more beautiful than you and more beloved to the Prophet.' The Prophet smiled again. When I saw him smiling, I sat down and cast a glance at the room, and by Allah, I couldn't see anything of importance but three hides. I said (to Allah's Apostle) "Invoke Allah to make your followers prosperous for the Persians and the Byzantines have been made prosperous and given worldly luxuries, though they do not worship Allah?' The Prophet was leaning then (and on hearing my speech he sat straight) and said, 'O Ibn Al-Khatttab! Do you have any doubt (that the Hereafter is better than this world)? These people have been given rewards of their good deeds in this world only.' I asked the Prophet. 'Please ask Allah's forgiveness for me. The Prophet did not go to his wives because of the secret which Hafsa had disclosed to 'Aisha, and he said that he would not go to his wives for one month as he was angry with them when Allah admonished him (for his oath that he would not approach Maria). When twenty-nine days had passed, the Prophet went to 'Aisha first of all. She said to him, 'You took an oath that you would not come to us for one month, and today only twenty-nine days have passed, as I have been counting them day by day.' The Prophet said, 'The month is also of twenty-nine days.' That month consisted of twenty-nine days. 'Aisha said, 'When the Divine revelation of Choice was revealed, the Prophet started with me, saying to me, 'I am telling you something, but you needn't hurry to give the reply till you can consult your parents." 'Aisha knew that her parents would not advise her to part with the Prophet. The Prophet said that Allah had said:
'O Prophet! Say To your wives; If you desire The life of this world And its glitter... then come! I will make a provision for you and set you free In a handsome manner. But if you seek Allah And His Apostle, and The Home of the Hereafter, then Verily, Allah has prepared For the good-doers amongst you A great reward.' (33.28) 'Aisha said, 'Am I to consult my parents about this? I indeed prefer Allah, His Apostle, and the Home of the Hereafter.' After that the Prophet gave the choice to his other wives and they also gave the same reply as 'Aisha did."
And here is the WHOLE context of Surah 66 pertaining to that issue that you and your contemporaries kept on disecting:
Surah 66
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
[1] O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts but Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
[2] Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.
[3] When the Prophet disclosed a matter of confidence to one of his consorts, and she then divulged it (to another), and Allah made it known to him, he confirmed part thereof and repudiated a part. Then when he told her thereof, she said, "Who told thee this?" He said, "He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)."
[4] If ye two turn in repentance to Him, your hearts are indeed so inclined; but if ye back up each other against him, truly Allah is his Protector, and Gabriel, and (every) righteous one among those who believe, and furthermore, the angels will back (him) up.
[5] It may be, if he divorced you (all), that Allah will give him in exchange Consorts better than you, who submit (their wills), who believe, who are devout, who turn to Allah in repentance, who worship (in humility), who travel (for Faith) and fast, previously married or virgins.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... 4923#34923
Funny to see this issue coming back up again. The hadeeth clearly states why that verse was revealed but Liberate makes up his own Detective story.
Liberate wrote:As for the Safiyah incident and the raids... i dont have all the info yet.. but let me check it up and i'll post later... this is not a cop out...
You dont need to bro, we already did it for you long time ago when we had this brought up now he's bringing it up with you.
So tell me, what does Safiyah have to do with Zaids marriage to Zainab or any of the topics formerly posted? Oh I see, now you are running off on another topic.
Are you even reading what you are pasting? This was a response to this post:
Quote:
About Surah 33:53
Muslim Book 008, Hadith Number 3328.
------------------------------
Chapter : Excellence of emancipating a slave-girl and then marrying her.
Anas (Allah be pleased with him) reported: I was sitting ...Allah, the Majestic and the Glorious, defeated them (the inhabitants of Khaibar), and there fell to the lot of Dihya a beautiful girl, and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) got her in exchange of seven heads, and then entrusted her to Umm Sulaim so that she might embellish her and prepare her (for marriage) with him. He (the narrator) said: He had been under the impression that he had said that so that she might spend her period of 'Iddah in her (Umm Sulaim's) house. (The woman) was Safiyya daughter of Huyayy
why dont you read the rest of the hadith. It speaks of two different events of marriage.
......Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) arranged the wedding feast consisting of dates, cheese, and refined butter, and pits were dug and tiers were set in them dining cloths, and there was brought cheese and refined butter, and these were placed there. And the people ate to their fill, and they said: We do not know whether he (the Holy Prophet) had married her (as a free woman), or as a slave woman. They said: If he (the Holy Prophet) would make her wear the veil, then she would be a (free married) woman, and if he would not make her wear the veil, then she should be a slave woman. When he intended to ride, he made her wear the veil and she sat on the hind part of the camel; so they came to know that he had married her. As they approached Medina, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) drove (his ride) quickly and so we did. 'Adba' (the name of Allah's Apostle's camel) stumbled and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) fell down and she (Radrat Safiyya: also fell down. He (the Holy Prophet) stood up and covered her; the woman looked towards her and said: May Allah keep away the Jewess! He (the narrator) said: I said: Aba Hamza, did Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) really fall down? He said: Yes, by Allah, he in fact fell down. Anas said: I also saw the wedding feast of Zainab , and he (the Holy Prophet) served bread and meat to the people, and made them eat to their heart's content, and he (the Holy Prophet) sent me to call people, and as he was free (from the ceremony) he stood up and I followed him. Two persons were left and they were busy in talking and did not get out (of the apartment). He (the Holy Prophet) then proceeded towards (the apartments of) his wives. He greeted with as-Salamu 'alaikum to every one of them and said: Members of the household, how are you? They said: Messenger of Allah, we are in good state 'How do you find your family? He would say: In good state. When he was free from (this work of exchanging greetings) he came back, and I also came back along with him. And as he reached the door, (he found) that the two men were still busy in talking. And when they saw him having returned, they stood up and went out; and by Allah! I do not know whether I had informed him, or there was a revelation to him (to the affect) that they had gone. He (the Holy Prophet) then came back and I also returned along with him, and as he put his step on the threshold of his door he hung a curtain between me and him, and (it was on this occasion) that Allah revealed this verse: ("O you who believe), do not enter the houses of the Prophet unless permission is given to 'you" (xxxiii. 53).
Surah 33:53 has nothing to do with Safiyah. The narrator of the hadith is speaking about two marriage events in the past in the life time of the Prophet that have nothing to do with each other. It doesnt indicate the prophet was married to Zainab and Safiyah at the same time or to more than 4 wives. Again you and your non comprehending reading skills.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... 4923#34923
My brother here is Shia and I am not, but we still come out with the same case conclusion but Liberate cant seem to get it cause he stuck on the dictation that it means something else where the sources do not provide such a thing. :roll:
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