the muslims revieced prophecies from Prophet Muhammed... eg the roman-persian war... Sura 30:2-4
I hope you are aware that the Byzantine persian conflict took place between 613 -614 to 627-628 AD above and beyond the few yrs (7 yrs according to the word used in the koran) specified in the koran.
http://www.kutriguri.com/body_4.html
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Dara
http://www.roman-empire.net/constant/constant-list.html
Prophet Muhammed had split the moon in two ref : sura 54...
LOL, where are you getting this from if not from hadiths and since you are a hadith rejecter you are in a catch 22 situation, if the moon was split, life on earth would cease to exist, this is just like the stone running away with Moses clothes, but you believe this stupidity and reject the other.
Acctually Paul made one of the most astonishing remarks on Islam before it came into existence.
"...if we, or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed... again... let him be accursed." -- Galatians 1:8-9
Actually he was speaking from experience.. ref : his vision of light or was it sound or was it both???? on the road to damascus.
Excuse me?
You know he was speaking from experience because he said "
if WE , or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than what WE preached to you, let him be accursed..."
He is speaking from experience by saying whoever preaches anything other than what WE preached be cursed?
Does your statement above make any sense, you are saying that Paul is speaking from experience not to accept the gospel that was being universally preached????
Yes well many heretics were called to that nicea meeting, don’t seek to much honor in that... cause they discussed theological dispute... and those that were the most in agreeance with the early christian tradition were generally accepted. Arius wasn’t one of the people that got much agreeance with his anti-trinity beliefs and was exiled as a heretic.
which is one of the reasons why there are still unitarians today... did you know that the entire north africa part was unitarian???
Evidence pls
where are you getting this?
where are your sources?
You keep asking me for sources which I have duly provided (only to have you dismiss it as rubbish and insult me and my parents in the process) how about you start backing up what you say?
As you have been unable to answer a straight forward question so far except turn the tables and say "here look at this in christianity" I will be pleasantly surprised to get an answer.
Tell me something all the koranic ayats, tafsirs, and hadiths I have given you did I make them up? Did I pluck them from muslim hating orientalists? Did they not come from the early muslims, as to how they interpreted the prophet's example? Are these muslims idiots for believing hadiths, are they gullible? Are they stupid? If you need to hack off parts of your religion, dismiss others, say you don't know to the rest and just accept it so that it becomes palatable, then you will never be free to examine your religion with the objective state of mind you are trying to trick us into believing you already do. Did I not go to muslim sources for the ayats, the hadiths, the translations and summaries?
Everything I have showed you about islam is blatant from the ayats, the hadiths and the tafsirs, you really have nothing to stand on by insulting me for doing just that. If a muslim cannot even question his own faith at the pain of death I can understand where you are coming from.
dude.. you provided single translations of verses you thought suspect.. thats fine. you provided tafsirs and hadiths for these verses.. but the problem with what you gave is .. they are all sunni. I am a shia. i do not follow sunni books...
You are a little too late, now is not the appropriate time to cut the hand that feeds you, did you not quote me a tafsir using Bukhari/Muslim sunni hadiths?,
Where did you get your comment that the koran was memorised if not from bukhari hadiths, and was translated into a number of qirra if not from Bukhari hadiths, where did you get your comment that Aisha and Hafsa were the two that came against the prophet and the reason they came against the prophet if not from Bukhari/Mulsim sunni hadiths? You even said the splitting of the moon was one of Mohammed's miracles where did you get this from if not from the hadiths?, you are a bit too late to now claim I don't belief in hadiths, you want me to quote you your shia source, I shall gladly do but we are going to end up in a more convoluted mess than we started with, even though Shia's have told me they accept Bukhari/Muslim hadiths.
What kind of double standards is this? If it contradicts what you deem to be common sense you reject it? You are basically telling us the early muslims had no common sense, am I to believe your shia imams will accept this from you? That you are rejecting the founders of the religious way of life? Where exactly is your shia doctrine to selectively pick and choose what you want to believe?
You want to prove the stone story to me??? fine... two words
SHIA SOURCE
This is how you make your own religion, this is how you create sects, pick and chose just like a pizza topping...designer islam to make it valid for the 20th century mindset.
????
Obviously you feel you are an authority to reject what the founders of your religion said, do you know how many muslims have told me that the stone running away with Moses's clothes was a miracle?
SHIA SOURCE
Couldn't the Ayatollah just issue a fatwa and have you dealt with?
grow up!!! didnt your parents teach you any manners????
What does my parents have to do with this? Did not the Ayatollah issue a fatwa for Salman Rushdie? Am I to believe that you are denying this? By your comment of grow up?, are you trying to sweep it away like you have been doing so far, it doesn't exist, it didn't happen, I am a much better muslim than this? Are you serious? Does he not have the power to issue religious edicts against people putting islam in a bad light?
Since you are making it out that I have made a serious error relating to islam by your comments that I should grow up, pls enlighten us on the real facts surrounding the edict on salman rushdie, pls do us the priviledge of clarifying the real situation. As a side note as a Shia do you think Salman Rushdie should be killed? Your emiment mullahs have promised to set aside a month's salary to make up the 2 million dollars for anyone who kills Salman,.... peace indeed.
The fact that you are in here ready to ridicule anybody who so much as shows you historical facts such as the fatwa against Salman Rushdie tells me you are not a serious muslim, you sound as nominal as they come, you are even unable to answer simple questions yet we are supposed to take your word for it that you are fit enough to explain islam, when you don't even comprehend the language it is written in.
Then if they are not true, what is the basis for those ayats?
Those koranic ayats have no context, you are biting the hand that feeds you, it is like hacking off the old and new testament and going it alone.
NOT ALL HADITHS (SHIA/SUNNI) ARE 100% TRUE. THERE ARE SOME TRUE AND SOME FALSE
How do you decide which one is true and which one is false?, let me guess the ones that put islam in a good light are the true ones, but the ones that make islam look bad in the light of 20th century mentality must be rejected no matter how logical they are to save face that facets of the religion you have followed are nothing short of stupidity.
These people have not proven themselves to be authorities on the koran, they are unaware of simple koranic ayats, am I to take it someone who is an authority on islam would respond several times with "I don't know" when you ask them simple questions? Would you believe the individual to be an authority on the koran?
Are your sources Shia??? if not .. well.. why is polygamy allowed in mormonism??
What does shia sources have to do with your responses of I don't know?
Again unable to answer any questions posed to you you now turn the tables.
Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2004 08:29 am Post subject:
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What exactly have you been doing with all my posts to you so far? Are you not here as an apologetic to "explain away"/"teach us"/ the embarassing hadiths that give body and context to your religion?
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No.when i joined here... i was interested in knowing more about christianity only. If i wish to learn more of Islam i would go to a muslim site... reading islamic info from a christian site... well what can i say... its stupid.
Tell me something all the koranic ayats, tafsirs, and hadiths I have given you did I make them up? Did I pluck them from muslim hating orientalists? Did they not come from the early muslims, as to how they interpreted the prophet's example? Are these muslims idiots for believing hadiths, are they gullible? Are they stupid? If you need to hack off parts of your religion, dismiss others, say you don't know to the rest and just accept it so that it becomes palatable, then you will never be free to examine your religion with the objective state of mind you are trying to trick us into believing you already do. Did I not go to muslim sources for the ayats, the hadiths, the translations and summaries?
Everything I have showed you about islam is blatant from the ayats, the hadiths and the tafsirs, you really have nothing to stand on by insulting me for doing just that. If a muslim cannot even question his own faith at the pain of death I can understand where you are coming from.
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But when i see people like you bringing "documentary proof" of diabolical origins etc of Islam... i believe it is my right and duty to clear this misconception up...
Did I make those ayats, hadiths, and tafsirs up?
What misconception, what exactly have you cleared up? "I don't know" "it is fabricated" "the scholars are idiots..." "there I cleaned it all up...next"
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When you tell me the hadiths are wrong, being taken out of context, contradict the koran, "and this is the proper context", I would like to see what hadiths you are using to base your evidence, and where it contradicts the koran, quoting me apologetic material written in the 20th century by westernized muslims to make islam seem mild to the west will do you no good, was your religion created in the 20th century?
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Tell me ... would you accept catholic references proving christianity or greek orthodox books or something that you do not believe in but is considered to be christian???
I am afraid your analogy is completely off the chart, do you or do you not accept hadiths of Bukhari, Muslim,e.t.c? Ofcourse you can always reject them all like you are rejecting the hadith of that donkey to save face.
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Simply telling me I reject this hadith because the hadiths are not infallible proves what exactly? That your decision supercedes eminent imams and early muslim scholars who interpreted your religion? Are you an authority on islam? Do you realise all you have done so far is give your word alone that the hadiths are not infallible.?
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No. I do not reject hadiths just because..... i read them.. cross ref them judge them based on the Quran and common sense and logic... and if it fails the test... its a fabricated hadith. so once again (i think this is the 3rd or 4th time i am repeating it) hadith books are not infallable. they can and do contain mistakes.
No doubt when the hadith makes sense and can be used for your own gain you will readily accept it? But if it is a stone running away with Moses's clothes it has to be rejected because it doesn't make any sense to you, the funny thing is the stone running away with Moses's clothes is just a tip of an iceberg that proliferates the reasons for entire quranic verses.
What kind of double standards is this? If it contradicts what you deem to be common sense you reject it? You are basically telling us the early muslims had no common sense, am I to believe your shia imams will accept this from you? That you are rejecting the founders of the religious way of life? Where exactly is your shia doctrine to selectively pick and choose what you want to believe?
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not just sunni but shia as well. the question is which ones are right and which ones are not .... thats where common sense and logic steps in...
This is how you make your own religion, this is how you create sects, pick and chose just like a pizza topping...designer islam to make it valid for the 20th century mindset.
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Altho i am not an authority on Islam...
Obviously you feel you are an authority to reject what the founders of your religion said, do you know how many muslims have told me that the stone running away with Moses's clothes was a miracle?
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i do have a brain. i call it as i see it...
This is precisely what I would like you to do, you would see the majority of koranic ayats to be just as ridiculous as the stone running away with Moses's clothes.
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even if the entire world's muslim priests disagreed with me... i will not step back
Couldn't the Ayatollah just issue a fatwa and have you dealt with?
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. after all they too are mere humans capable of making mistakes...
You said you are a shia? How do you view the ayatollah is he capable of making mistakes?
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Now you play the politician's game you have been playing all along, do not answer a straight forward question, simply reverse the question, you are asking me to give you a document that says the hadiths do not contain any mistakes? Am I a muslim? did I write the hadiths? Were the hadiths not written by muslims, as an example of how a muslim was to model himself?
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call it whatever you like... your opinions are of no consequence of me. It is you who is equating the hadiths with infallibility... you do not need to be a muslim ... you just have to use a lil' intelligence.. people here are telling you that all hadiths are not 100% true...
Then if they are not true, what is the basis for those ayats?
Those koranic ayats have no context, you are biting the hand that feeds you, it is like hacking off the old and new testament and going it alone.
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yet you wish to ignore these people
These people have not proven themselves to be authorities on the koran, they are unaware of simple koranic ayats, am I to take it someone who is an authority on islam would respond several times with "I don't know" when you ask them simple questions? Would you believe the individual to be an authority on the koran?
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and still act ignorant to this fact..
I am afraid your word is not good enough, show me the hadiths and the tafsirs like I have done, then we can move on. (muslims who normally refuse to show me hadiths and tafsirs usually do so because they are in a catch 22 situation) you can scream all you want, I would like to see your religious scriptures as to where you are getting your interpretation for those ayats if the ones I am showing you are lies.
I showed them to you.. and gave links... yet you choose to ignore it and use non-shia sources only to prove it to me... bring me shia sources. if you are man enuff???
Which hadiths did you show me?
I am looking for the context, why a verse was revealed, where, when and why, you are in a serious dilemma when you show me pooya/ali commentaries that simply just says this is what you are supposed to do with no historical context whatsoever, when do you ascribe context to an ayat? When it says
"hide in wait for the idolaters and kill them" will you suddenly then say at this point we need to look at the koran in context, and rush over to your Bukhari/Muslim sunni mentors to find the context, but in the same breath call those people and the early imams who interpreted and incorporated the hadiths into shia law idiots because certain aspects contradicts with your westernised approach to islam? Pls tell me this is not your way of thinking, it is better to hack it off completely (the whole religion) than pick and chose what is logical in a sea of stupidity.
Unfortunately/fortunately (whichever way you want to look at it) since I do not have the muslim mindset I can't just gloss it over and claim "allah is great" in the process. If you are truly comfortable with your religion you will be prepared to let the world see it in all its beauty, telling me something is false when you are not even prepared to give an alternative as to what you believe is typical of someone who does not know and does not want to be bothered, which I am afraid to say has been your attitude throughout.
Are YOU complaining about MY attitude??? good one!!!!
I am not complaining about your attitude, although we both know that is your goal, you want to be as obstinate and illogical as possible (your words) so you feel you have won a debate (believe it or not all I want you to do is apply some rationality to your scriptures, not once have I personally insulted you, Mohammed and islam and the hadiths applying rationality to them does not equate to insulting you and your parents as you have done with me) You might find this hard to believe but I meet lots of people like you, they mean well but they have been brought up as muslims, they don't understand the religion, can't defend it and if they were in the west would drop islam like a ton of bricks.
Quran 38:17 We endued Our slave David with power. It was We who subdued the hills to sing Our praises with him at nightfall. And the birds were assembled, all obedient to him?
Qur an 91:11 Thamud rejected (their prophet) through inordinate wrong-doing. Behold, the most-wicked wretch among them broke forth but the Messenger said? Be cautious. It is a She-camel of Allah! And bar her not from having her drink? But they rejected him as a false prophet and hamstrung her? So Allah on account of their crime, obliterated their traces, doomed them, desolated their dwellings, leveling them to the ground for their sin.
Quran 27:18 At length, when they came to a valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it....
27:18 ....
[Shakir 27:18] Until when they came to the valley of the Naml, a Namlite said: O Naml! enter your houses, (that) Sulaiman and his hosts may not crush you while they do not know.
[Yusufali 27:18] At length, when they came to a (lowly) valley of ants, one of the ants said: "O ye ants, get into your habitations, lest Solomon and his hosts crush you (under foot) without knowing it."
[Pickthal 27:18] Till, when they reached the Valley of the Ants, an ant exclaimed: O ants! Enter your dwellings lest Solomon and his armies crush you, unperceiving.
[Pooya/Ali Commentary 27:18]
When Sulayman with his large army of men, jinn, spirits and animals entered a valley where several thousand ants were carrying on their daily routine on the surface of the earth, they at once decided to enter into their holes inside the earth so that they might not be inadvertantly crushed by the hosts of Sulayman....
Where is the context?
Your Pooya/Ali commentary gives no context it doesn't tell you why a koranic ayat was revealed or try and explain the absurd; like small insects talking to a man, you might as well give me a translation in english and chant
"To hear is to obey" BTW you do know that Yusuf Ali was a sunni muslim? Whats the point in quoting a sunni and with the same breath dismiss sunni beliefs???
Didn't the entire nation see for themselves who was vouching for Moses?, Aaron, and Joshua? Which miracle or prophecy did Mohammed perform? since you are a hadith rejecter which one will you chose?
Who vouched for Moses?
I believe we have already been through this, the ENTIRE NATION SAW WHO WAS VOUCHING FOR MOSES.
Let me give you an analogy of where you are coming from:
Jesus and the apostles said if anybody preaches a gospel other than what we have told you do not accept it.
Islam comes and claims to be following the God of the christian and the jews.
It claims Mohammed as a prophet in the same vein as the old testament and new testament prophets.
Now in the clear instructions from Jesus and the apostles, that we accept no other gospel
What are we to do with Mohammed and his claims? with no miracles to his name, no prophecies, and nothing but selfish utterings and threats to do his commandments?
He has no prophecy to his name, has no miracle to his name (the koran is very adamant that Mohammed has no miracles)
Would you accept the Bahaullah, or Mirza Ghulam Ahmed when you koran says Mohammed is the last prophet?? Is this clearer on how christians view Mohammed in the light of what Paul said, especially with no prophecies or miracles to his name?
You are only saying this because at least you are fully aware nobody vouched for Mohammed, noone alive or dead heard a dream a premonition anything whatsoever from God, and yet the man has no miracles, no prophecies, a book he never wrote, he never saw one word of is paraded as his greated miracle (like he had any), yet the hadiths are full of his immoral lifestyle, a false prophet like no other has not walked the planet as Mohammed.
I have already stated this...
Stated what exactly?
That you are a hadith rejecter?
Then how do you know anything about Mohammed?
How do you even know if he had any wives, or took part in any war? or was the great pious humble man you have been spoon fed at the threat of death into thinking he is?
By your logic any tom dick or harry who just suddenly claims he is a prophet is automatically a prophet, he doesn't have to have a prophecy, perform miracles, do anything, just proclaim he is a prophet do some good works and ask for booty and viola "To hear is to obey"
I wonder... waht miracles did John The Baptist perform... since he is after all the only one who vouched for Jesus...
You are conducting a logical fallacy, denying the antecedent of the two previous revelations which you claim you are a follower of. Let me remind you of what those are:
"If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death.”
You may say to yourselves, “How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?” If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him.
"If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. That prophet or dreamer must be put to death."
Deuteronomy 18:19-22, 13:1-5
Matthew 7
15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves.
16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
It seems my point was lost on you. Let me elaborate on the stupidity of the context:
Quote:
024.001 “(This is) a surah which We have revealed and made obligatory and in which We have revealed clear communications that you may be mindful. For the woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes. Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah. And let a party of the Believers witness their punishment.”
Interesting sura what exactly is the historical reference for this sura called the criterion, did allah suddenly manifest it for mohammed to utter after one of his many epileptic seizures or did he just make it up based on the current events happening in his neighorhood of the arabian peninsula, let us see what the sunnah has to say about the creation of this sura:
Tabari VIII:58/Ishaq:494 “Aisha said, ‘When the raid [thats right you heard it right raid not self defence not persecution from the pagans just a simple raid committed ........................
sorry i do not respond to sick demented childish remarks of a person who was taught no manners by his parents... i suggest you re-phrase... or atleast go wash out your mouth with some soap...
So much for showing you the sources you constantly ask for. I am now a sick demented individual whose parents taught me no manners?? (Were you not the one who showed me the rules regarding insulting others on this forum?) , all I want you to do is apply some rationality to your scriptures, not once have I insulted you, I fail to see where this rage and vitriol is stemming from, by all means show me the biblical verses, where Jesus or the apostles sanctioned the rape of captured women, the fact women should be captured at all, floggings of individuals accused of committing adultery and requesting 4 witnesses and other stupidity to verify the act.
All because I showed you the very context of your 4 witnesses?
Since all I say are lies, pls elaborate the true context for us all, the ones with the shia sources to explain why you need 4 witnesses when accused of adultery. I have heard several deep moral explanations for it such as it really means nobody can be stoned to death because it's almost impossible to get 4 witnesses to observe the act... when the context according to the hadiths is nothing of the sort.
You may continue trying to be obstinate in the clear light of reason, but let me bring to mind practical islam, not so far from you, your neighbors, several hostages have been beheaded in Iraq, where are the muslims chanting out that this is wrong, this is against islam? where are they? how can they be so silent when such acts are committed in the name of islam? Is it because those muslims are all in the west?? Go to any islamic board and see if you will not find several muslims sunni/shia justifying these beheadings (even in the west), yet the moderate muslims will say this is against islam but when pushed they will start sympathising with their brothers in palestine, the american zionist oppression, that the hostages had it coming...
Would you care to show me the proper hadiths and interpretation of the 4 witnesses now? since obviously my sources are lies?
Sure ... no problem..
...Refer to the commentary of Nisa: 15 and 16 to 18; and particularly Bani-lsrail: 32 for the correct meaning of zina (adultery).
there... there is no need for any hadiths ... as there is a clear message... bring 4 witnesses...
Do you realise I asked for context and you showed me an explanation with no context?, why was this verse revealed? what was the context? If you are going to tell me there is no need for a context
will you say the same when it says
"lie in wait for the idolaters, beguile them, kill them"??
This is what will happen on judgement day, a prophetic statement nothing to do with threatening one to accept the religion,
How is this not threatening one to be in religion???? Eg : "You will burn in hell.. vipers!!!" hmm why would these persons called vipers burn in hell???
Where is this? Pls give me the verses you are obviously quoting out of context. There is a reason why I am asking this.
The info being "this hadith is a lie". I need a little bit more to go on than this.
If you can prove that the stone ran away... i will accept your story... and i am sure you are able to prove it.. .as you do not wish to be labeled a liar here... so go ahead prove that a stone is capable of running away...
Unable to answer a straight forward question or defend your religion, you now ask me to prove something you believe is not in the koran so you do not have to answer. This is a classic case of "argumentum ignorantiam"
"There is no case for stones running away with Moses's clothes this is illogical therefore my religion couldn't have included something so stupid" but they did, you ignore the ones about insects talking to solomon, clouds talking, hills singing, whoever wrote the koran included these stories, and similar stories in the hadiths, You are in effect saying your koran and hadiths have been written partly by idiots.
My apologies, I did an extensive search in the available bukhari muslim abu dawod and malik hadiths at the usc site did not see the story anywhere, which hadith is this story from? ( I am well aware it is shia hadith where is it from?)
Are you reall this slow?? or just doing it for fun sake??? i already gave you the link atleast 3 times...
www.al-islam.org/quran
The question still stands, where are the hadiths, al-islam.org/quran is a quran site, the commentary is just that, devoid of context, the hadiths gives context, where is the context pls? Your true colors are beginning to show you do know stooping to personal insults just shows you are unable to hold your own.
which do you see as the more logical explanation for a wife to come against her husband:
I have already answered that... why do you keep repeating the same broken record story again and again??? 2 of the wives of the Prophet had issues... aiasha and hafsa.. so the first time they fabricated the "I smell honey" story
Oh dear.... this is our dilemma, the honey is in a Bukhari/Muslim sunni hadiths, you have stated repeatedly you reject hadiths of sunni muslims, What gives you the nerve to use sunni hadiths now to defend yourself? when you have stated repeatedly you reject them? where are the Shia hadiths that speak of this incident?
Dude... what is your problem?? you are bringing me sunni hadiths and saying that it is the absolute truth... to me.. a shia.. i accept sunni hadiths as much as you will accept JW's as truly guided christians!!!!!
Case in point.
Please answer the question which is more logical God talking to Himself in the third person, or some possessed human being claiming God is talking to him, why would God be talking to Himself in the third person? where in your koran do you get the idea that this place of prostration is Jerusalem?
THis is a 2 part question... the 1st part... i have already dealt with (however i would also like to add the incident of paul here... did paul reall see Jesus or did he see satan or was he just another delusional person who was high on weed and halucinating??? It hurts doesnt it???
... as for the 2nd part...
Where have you dealt with it? Apart from "I don't know" I don't recall anything of signifcance you have said. You are now telling me Paul was smoking weed, where does the scriptures say that? I am coming to you from islamic doctrine you are coming to me with personal abusive ad hominems.
so your assertion that this place is jerusalem is false...
So the temple mount has no basis in Jerusalem?
Which other prophet needed divine revelation asking people to leave his house?
are you saying that all the people throughtout history had impeccable manners???
No this has no relevance, I am asking you which other prophEt needed divine revelation to have people leave his house so he can be alone with his wife, or to sanction marrying his son's (adopted or otherrwise) wife.
until the comming of Prophet Muhammed??? i already told you some of these people had mo manners...
What is the relevance?, the question is which other prophet needed divine revelaton and incorporated it into scripture for their own personal gain?, if they need to be told by Mohammed they can only get to paradise by not inconveniencing him and to give him 5% of booty, they are being fleeced.
and being a Prophet he cant just reprimand anyone for his personal benifit... until there is a divine message!!!
??? How you ever wondered just how convenient to Mohammed these divine messages are? Has God ever worked like this before? Respecting a man when He said repeatedly in christianity nd judaism He is no respecter of persons?
Fabrication
"I don't know"
"Look at this in the bible"
Translation error.
in other words you have nothing relevent to say... typical muslim hater attitude...
I am actually trying to get you to conduct a discussion, a discussion involves at least two parties, trying to get you to commit to anything is like getting blood from a stone, but yet I am supposed to accept your "
I don't know" and personal insults as your "
info" that you covered all I ask.
Ok now you have something you are certain of, pls show us the hadiths of the early muslims at the time of Mohammed showing they were literate?
First you need to show that these ppl were illetrate!!!..
Another logical fallacy arguing from a negative premise and asking me to prove it for you, could Mohammed read or write wasn't he illiterate?
If Mohammed the very best example of humanity for all time could not read or write and he was a caravan merchant what makes you think the fellow muslims could? Considering the language was not even fully developed for calligraphy purposes till 150yrs after Mohammed you have nothing to stand on.
http://www.sakkal.com/ArtArabicCalligraphy.html
since you asked first you need to prove you question... it like my saying ... "paul was gay... prove that he wasnt"
You are making another logical fallacy Where is the scriptural evidence that Paul was gay? Did Paul say such a thing? You are denying the antecedent (what Paul said about homosexuality), making an abusive ad hominem attack on Paul with no scriptural basis (lying)
Paul says in:
2 Timothy 3
1 This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2 For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3 Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4 Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Where do you read gay in any of this?
On the other hand, they are ayats for Mohammed to sanction the rape of women, to commit incest, to steal, to kill and declare himself
do you understand the absurdity of your stupid comments???? Paul never married... no woman in his life... not even a minor fling... i'd say he was gay!!!.
I suggest you calm down, I am beginning to have images of you frothing at the mouth.... Paul abhorred homosexuality and preached against it. Paul did not marry neither did Jesus, these people were saints, a far cry from the pedofile that would be locked up even in Kuwait and serveral countries in the middle east UNDER THEIR SEX LAWS BUT HE IS THE BEST EXAMPLE FOR ALL MANKIND.
prove me wrong!!! no.. "this is a lie" will not work.. as you have been to adamant to my posts... ofcourse i am an idiot...
Again I don't see the need for a temper tantrum I asked for scriptural basis, I showed you the scriptures that Paul abhorred homosexuality, and the ayats that Mohammed sanctioned incest for himself and the rape opf female captives.
I am making the case from the scriptures you are making a case from ad hominem insults.
If you are going to have a heart attack when faced with the truth about your prophet maybe apologetics is not your scene.
Oh and to the Mods... in case you are thinking of banning me for blasphemy... i suggest you read this intelligent great christian's words first...
You are not putting islam in a good light, you are being as illogical as possible asking questions and never replying, making ad hominem insults and attacks on characters with no scriptural basis, all I have said about Mohammed are obvious from the context, contexts you chose to dismiss but do you provide an alternative context? No, just your word if I do not agree you chose to insult and actually try to pass off as the one who is vindicated to act like you do.
The archaelogical evidence from Gerard Puin disagrees with you.
Does purin say his works are a fact or theory?? coz if i am not mistaken he used the words theory... Thanks H2O.. thanks for the info bro!!!
Just from this response we have an idea of the kind of muslim we are dealing with. You didn't even read about Puin and his
FINDINGS (not theories) he is the only arabic scholar to be allowed access to the Yemeni manuscripts, it is precisely because of his findings that he is no longer allowed access to it. His findings are damning.
Again the archaelogical evidence disagrees with you, the earliest koran can only be traced to 150 yrs after the death of Mohammed, and it has no diacritical marks to distinguish vowels, or b's, t's and h's.
*sigh*
We are supposed to be impressed by this?
your donkey story...
guess what... because i couldnt read arabic.. i accepted the translation you gave... however i got it translated today... and you know something.. he said the very first 2-3 words in the hadith say this is a false / fabricated hadith which is interesting... as you seemed to skip these words in your translation... so much for your status of "the truthful" .... so once again i have proved you to be a liar...
Sorry to disappoint you it says one or two narrators in the chain have denied this hadith (not all), have a look at the isnad it's a sizeable list.
It is commendable you are willing to admit you don't know, since you don't know why are you defending the indefensible?
would it be possible for you to learn some manners???
What exactly do you mean here?
That because I show you the context of your religion I am lacking in manners?
I should just let it slide knowing full well many like you are unaware of the context of, that you bowing down to every whim of Mohammed?
You are giving too much spiritual significance than the context suggests.
I do not see any relationship with predestination, I see a man who is confronted like a trapped animal and wants a get out of jail clause.
no i am not.. it is you who is giving a twisted sick meaning to something that is absolutely beautiful.
Where are your shia hadiths that sheds light on the context?
Jesus told Peter and the rest of the disciples He would be taken captive and suffer, Peter said no we will not let this happen, Jesus rebuked Peter by telling him this must happen.
Peter said no??? let me remind you the words ... "And Peter rebuked Jesus" what is the meaning of rebuke???
rebuke —v. (-king) express sharp disapproval to (a person) for a
fault; censure. —n. rebuking or being rebuked. [Anglo-French]
Peter told Jesus he would not allow the things He said happen, yes he expressed sharp disapproval of what Jesus said because he did not want him to die. I don't see where you are getting the idea that he came against Jesus's teachings...
Am I to believe you are prepared to contradict your own religion to get a point?
Imagine this scenario I see a muslim and an atheist arguing, the atheist argues that there is no such thing as gods, for all he cares there might be a pink unicorn, he claims mohammed was swindling and lording it over the arabians, I laugh and side with the atheist knowing full well that his arguments can equally be used against me. A christian does not have to stoop that low.
So you agree that the Quran that you are using to support the divinity of the Bible is also divine???
I reiterate the koran is a demonic forgery, because it contains plagiarised biblical material does not make it divine, it also has plagiarised zoroastrian stories in there too, does it make it divine?
Precisely what I am talking about, you are now undermining the prophet hood of John even though your koran says he is a prophet, do you think we christians would agree that Paul is a devil just to gain an inch? with a hindu or a Bahai or a Hare Krishna??
Once again you have proven you do not know the ethics of debate...
Coming from an individual resulting to insulting my parents in an unprovoked ad hominem abuse, you are one to talk of ethics.
i cannot prove the bible using the Quran to a christian... i can only prove the Bible using the Bible... irrelevent of what The Quran says...
I am showing you from islamic scriptures when viewed rationally vast amounts of islam is nothing short of stupidity.
They witnessed a man undergoing an 'epileptic' fit.
and the companions of paul witnessed satan taking a form of an angel of light...
Not quite Paul did not regress from the teachings of Christ. He stopped killing people the moment he came to Christ, Mohammed on the other hand came back to kill the people that mocked him after his flight from the hijra on his return with 10,000 mujaheddins.
I believe this has already been shown to you,
It is interestng how irratating it can be when someone is obstinate... "No.. you didnt prove it... prove it... But i did.. read up... No.. prove it again"
Again "Because I said so" does not work, show me the scriptural context like I have shown you.
It was a question, seeing the standard of your other replies I guess it was asking too much.
No.. plz teach me... i wish to know... or is it that you have no answers???
Are you serious?
You want proof that Mohammed wanted to commit suicide? What type of a muslim are you if you are unaware of this?
proof plz...
Now if you are unaware of this
What good does it do you being this irrational?
You know perfectly well your koran says John is a prophet.
Why are you ridiculing your own beliefs to get one up on the opposition?
Do you think christians are proud to argue against non christians that "Paul is a devil", this is exactly what you are doing "my beliefs be damned, the devil was talking to John..." I am sad to say this attitude of degrading your own beliefs to gain an inch is symptomatic of a suicide bomber, blowing yourself/your beliefs to bits to gain what?
Anybody reading this thread will know this is a desperate tactic, I understand Saddam's own relatives gave him up, and now you are making an argument that John the baptist was demon possessed even though your koran claims he was a prophet, could this behaviour of
cutting the hand that feeds you notorious only islam?
Why are you taking Quranic support??? Isnt it demonic in origin??? i believe in the devil... and all that.. why are you taking support of a book you call demonic????
I don't support the quran in any way shape or form, I am coming from islamic scriptures when viewed rationality, unlike you I will not demean my faith to prove a point. If a jew came to me and said Paul was possessed I wouldn't say Isaiah was possessed, or Ezekiel or any other old testament prophet when receiving their revelations knowing full well it contradicts my beliefs in line with the old and new testaments, do you not see me saying such a thing means I am simply a hypocrite who knows nothing of my own roots, that is precisely what you are doing insulting John the baptist.
Do you know how many muslims have told me the stone running away with Moses's clothes is a miracle?
Are you trying to tell me your eminent imams and scholars who recorded this sayings didn't have common sense? Then by default the rigorously tested chain of narrators also didn't have common sense, and since they claimed to have got this information from Mohammed himself, then he doesn't have common sense.
Do you realise the logical fallacy of an argument you are making?
That the founders of your religion incorporated lies into islamic doctrine Without these islamic doctrine there is no shariah law, the rules and regulations that governs how a muslim behaves goes out the window because the hadiths give us these laws, following the example of Mohammed himself, you forget there is no separation between religion and state in islam, the two are intertwined, are you telling me that the idealogy of islam's shariah law is a pack of lies, transmitted by a pack of idiots, obtained from a greater idiot?
So what you are saying is majority wins??? are all the writers f hadith infalliable???
Then where is your context for those verses? Are you telling me you have ayats with no context?
How do you interpret the verse of the sword? If you are going to be a hadith rejecter?
Oh pls, the unitarians believe Jesus is God, how does that help you?
so you agree that trinity is false???
No again my point was lost on you, you are making an argument from an improper transposition, your argument against the trinity using unitarians contradicts islam, they believe that Jesus is God too, how does that help you, don't you see you are being irrational?
Try it sometime make a tape recording of yourself, have it played back, you will be two entities having the same voice, but to you, you are actually now two completely different persons. If we were to take your argument to it's logical conclusion, since you believe allah is everywhere and hears everything, then how can allah be one?
yea but this word of God didnt become man and have himself beaten up and killed to save people like you
As prophecied He bore the guilt of our transgressions, God demands a perfect sacrifice, the zoroastrian plagiarised story of your good and evil on a weighing scale won't get you into heaven.
Again you are contradicting your own scriptures.
Does your scriptures not say that "Jesus is the word of God"?
Let me explain something to you as to what I believe... the koran is a demonic forgery, the fact that it plagiarised biblical stories out of context with no chronology does not give it any credibility whatsoever.
And yet you use it for support... *sigh*
Yes indeed with a discussion with a muslim, you won't accept the bible, and will only accept islamic teachings, however when I come with those islamic teachings and you reject them we have hit a brick wall. Even though I use your koran never do I use it to contradict my own beliefs.
What part in my response didn't you understand?
No sinner is going to heaven.
after your reborn incident... have you committed any sins??? big or small???
No one is free from sins, it is a daily struggle but the Spriit will convict you when you sin.