Muslim gladiator wrote:
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The real problem however appears in the following verse in the Koran states:
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That is why We laid it down for the Israelites that whoever killed a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be deemed as though he had killed all mankind; and that whoever saved a human life shall be deemed as though he had saved all mankind. -- Sura 5:32.
Where does this verse come from? Well not from God, it comes from a Jewish commentator, the Mishnah Sanhedrin:
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We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, "The voice of thy brother's bloods crieth" (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race.
Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5
Talking about additions: what does a Jewish fairytale do in the Koran, and why does it even include a commentators note of it?
Let us finally end this search with the real problem of the Quran, [5]
{ مِنْ أَجْلِ ذٰلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِيۤ إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنَّهُ مَن قَتَلَ نَفْساً بِغَيْرِ نَفْسٍ أَوْ فَسَادٍ فِي ٱلأَرْضِ فَكَأَنَّمَا قَتَلَ ٱلنَّاسَ جَمِيعاً وَمَنْ أَحْيَاهَا فَكَأَنَّمَا أَحْيَا النَّاسَ جَمِيعاً وَلَقَدْ جَآءَتْهُمْ رُسُلُنَا بِٱلّبَيِّنَٰتِ ثُمَّ إِنَّ كَثِيراً مِّنْهُمْ بَعْدَ ذٰلِكَ فِي ٱلأَرْضِ لَمُسْرِفُونَ }
Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Arthur J. Arberry
{[5]Therefore We prescribed for the Children of Israel that whoso slays a soul not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land, shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoso gives life to a soul, shall be as if he ha given life to mankind altogether. Our Messengers have already come to them with the clear signs; then many of them thereafter commit excesses in the earth.}
Genesis 4:10 (New International Version)
{10 The LORD said, "What have you done? Listen! Your brother's blood cries out to me from the ground. 11 Now you are under a curse and driven from the ground, which opened its mouth to receive your brother's blood from your hand. 12 When you work the ground, it will no longer yield its crops for you. You will be a restless wanderer on the earth."}
The verse of the Quran is a general prescription for all murders, where as the Bible verse is God speaking specifically to Cain for the murder of his brother Abel. The Bible verse says nothing about Abel’s murder being as bad as if he killed everyone on earth, nor does it say anything about one who preserves life. The Quran takes the story of Cain and Abel and uses it to make a general prescription, where as the biblical story really only speaks to that specific situation.
Kai replies:
The Qur’an clearly says:
28. Recite to them the truth of the story of the two sons of Adam. Behold! they each presented a sacrifice (to Allah.: It was accepted from one, but not from the other. Said the latter: "Be sure I will slay thee." "Surely," said the former, "(Allah) doth accept of the sacrifice of those who are righteous.
29. "If thou dost stretch thy hand against me, to slay me, it is not for me to stretch my hand against thee to slay thee: for I do fear Allah, the cherisher of the worlds.
30. "For me, I intend to let thee draw on thyself my sin as well as thine, for thou wilt be among the companions of the fire, and that is the reward of those who do wrong."
31. The (selfish) soul of the other led him to the murder of his brother: he murdered him, and became (himself) one of the lost ones.
32. Then Allah sent a raven, who scratched the ground, to show him how to hide the shame of his brother. "Woe is me!" said he; "Was I not even able to be as this raven, and to hide the shame of my brother?" then he became full of regrets-
33. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Why don’t you go back and read my post again; my point had nothing to do with the Bible but the Jewish traditions.
THIS ISSUE HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH GENESIS; I AM SURPRISED THAT YOU EVEN BOTHER TO BRING GENESIS UP!
The Koran adds a tradition which suggested that Cain learned from a raven how to dispose the body of his brother
This story is apocryphical, a fairytale taken from Pirke Rabbi Eliezer (a Jewish fairy):
Adam and his companion sat weeping and mourning for him (Abel) and did not know what to do with him as burial was unknown to them. Then came a raven, whose companion was dead, took its body, scratched in the earth, and hid it before their eyes; then said Adam, "I shall do as this raven has done", and at once he took Abel's corpse, dug in the earth and hid it.
The particular verse ( 33)
Which said:
33. On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Is taken from a Jewish commentary to the particular incident in Genesis:
We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, "The voice of thy brother's bloods crieth" (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race.
Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5
Do you get the point?
It’s a human phrase a comment!
And my question was:
WHAT IS IT DOING IN THE KORAN? IN THE SAME CONTEXT AS THE JEWISH COMMENTARY, AND WHY DOES THE KORAN EVEN INCLUDE A FAIRYTALE?????
COULD YOU PLEASE EXPOUND ON THAT
Muslim gladiator wrote:
So, As you see there is a huge difference between both verses Oral Torah and the Quran.
Kai replies:
What difference?
The Jewish tradition and Jewish commentaries are identical to the Koran!
Jesus told us to reject the teaching of the elders (Matthew 15: 1-20), since they are mere human ideas and speculation, which is why we question the Koranic utilization of these sources!
Muslim gladiator wrote:
And as we mentioned this subject, let me put for you a comment by a Converted Jewish Journalist to Islam “Muhammad Asad” in his Translations for the meanings of the Quran[5]
( above. The moral of this particular Biblical story -a moral which the followers of the Bible have been "concealing from themselves" - is summarized in verse 32. AL-MA’ IDAH SURAH with all evidence of the truth: yet, behold, notwithstanding all this, many of them go on committing all manner of excesses on earth.
Kai replies:
Certainly, it is a good Jewish moral, but it was never a part of the God’s word! It’s a comment!
Muslim gladiator wrote:
Quote:
We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, "The voice of thy brother's bloods crieth" (Gen. 4:10). It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race.
Mishnah Sanhedrin, 4:5
Now about Mishnah Sanhedrin
[85] Mishnah, Sanhedrin 4: 5
[פה] משנה מסכת סנהדרין פרק ד משנה ה
לפיכך נברא אדם יחידי ללמדך שכל המאבד נפש אחד מעלה עליו הכתוב כאילו איבד עולם מלא וכל המקיים נפש אחת מעלה עליו הכתוב כאילו קיים עולם מלא ומפני שלום הבריות שלא יאמר אדם לחבירו אבא גדול מאביך . . . ולהגיד גדולתו של הקדוש ברוך הוא שאדם טובע כמה מטבעות בחותם אחד וכולן דומין זה לזה ומלך מלכי המלכים הקדוש ברוך הוא טבע כל אדם בחותמו של אדם הראשון ואין אחד מהן דומה לחבירו.
And this the translation for who may it concern in English
[85] Mishnah, Sanhedrin 4: 5
For this reason, man [i.e. the first human being] was created alone to teach that whoever destroys a single life is as though he had destroyed an entire universe, and whoever saves a single life is as if he had saved an entire universe. Furthermore [the first man was created alone] for the sake of peace among men, so that no one could say to another, “My ancestor was greater than yours” . . . [Yet another reason] was to proclaim the greatness of the Holy One, blessed be He, for when a human being strikes many coins from one mould, they all resemble one another, but the supreme King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He, fashioned every man in the stamp of the first man, and yet not one of them resembles his fellow.
The Scientific faithful behaviour in arguments allow to put the original context in its original language for who those to see if you translation is right or wrong. Now check your translation to the main context in Hebrew and see if it is close enough or not. I will lead the judge for the people who can translate it and compare between our translations. Ask as anyone knows Hebrew which translation is more accurate.
Kai replies:
As we have pointed out a significant number of times already is that translations may slightly differ. However THE PARTICULAR PASSAGE IS STILL A JEWISH COMMENT, AND NOT THE WORD OF GOD, AND YET IT IS INCLUDED INTO THE KORAN!
Muslim gladiator wrote:
Second, As this [85] Mishnah, Sanhedrin 4: 5 (Oral Torah) which you Christians did not add it to your books,
Kai replies:
Neither Christians nor Jews have added it to the Bible, as we both realise that the particular passage does not belong there.
AGAIN I FAIL TO GRASP YOUR LOGIC HERE!
FIRST YOU CONDEMN US FOR ADDING VERSES TO THE BIBLE, AND NOW YOU CONDEMN US FOR NOTHING ANDDING EXTRA MATERIAL TO THE BIBLE; WOULD YOU PLEASE MAKE UP YOUR MIND?
Muslim gladiator wrote:
Descirbes [Genesis 4:10] And as we explained before that there differences between two verses (Written Torah and Quran). So let us see the difference here between the (Oral Torah) according to Jews theory and The Quran.
Kai replies:
Mishnah is not a oral tradition or a oral Torah it is a commentary (and this particular saying a commentators note); what shall I do to make it sink in?
Muslim gladiator wrote:
The context of Mishnah, Sanhedrin talked about the reason of the creation (For this reason, man [i.e. the first human being] was created alone to teach that whoever destroys a single life is as though he had destroyed an entire universe]. Mishnah, Sanhedrin did not mentioned that the man is ordered. Quran stated that the man is ordered by that { مِنْ أَجْلِ ذٰلِكَ كَتَبْنَا عَلَىٰ بَنِيۤ إِسْرَائِيلَ}. In all the Quran when it the term “Katabna” “كَتَبْنَا” always referred to something has been ordered. Quran stated this term three times. Check that in
Quran [4]
{ وَلَوْ أَنَّا كَتَبْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ أَنِ ٱقْتُلُوۤاْ أَنْفُسَكُمْ أَوِ ٱخْرُجُواْ مِن دِيَارِكُمْ مَّا فَعَلُوهُ إِلاَّ قَلِيلٌ مِّنْهُمْ وَلَوْ أَنَّهُمْ فَعَلُواْ مَا يُوعَظُونَ بِهِ لَكَانَ خَيْراً لَّهُمْ وَأَشَدَّ تَثْبِيتاً }
Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Arthur J. Arberry
Kai replies:
You need to clarify these sentences; I have no clue, what you are trying to prove
Muslim gladiator wrote:
{[4]But had We prescribed for them, saying, ’Slay yourselves’ or ’Leave your habitations,’ they would not have done it, save a few of them; yet if they had done as they were admonished it would have been better for them, and stronger confirming them,}
Prescribed here means “Orders”
Go to
www.dictionary.com to check it yourself.
Kai replies:
I am still lost here
Muslim gladiator wrote:
Quran [21]
{ وَلَقَدْ كَتَبْنَا فِي ٱلزَّبُورِ مِن بَعْدِ ٱلذِّكْرِ أَنَّ ٱلأَرْضَ يَرِثُهَا عِبَادِيَ ٱلصَّالِحُونَ }
Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Arthur J. Arberry
“[21]For We have written in the Psalms, after the Remembrance, ’The earth shall be the inheritance of My righteous servants.’”
Mishnah, Sanhedrin did not give order or said that is a law of God. It is just said man created to teach. Man created to get married too. But many do not do. Man created to eat beef but many just eat vegetables so will God enter them to the hell because of that?
[Quran 5:15]
Kai replies:
Now I am totally lost
Perhaps you can clarify this in another post.
The bottom line is that Jewish tradition and Jewish commentaries and the Koran are in agreement.
Muslim gladiator wrote:
{ يَا أَهْلَ ٱلْكِتَابِ قَدْ جَآءَكُمْ رَسُولُنَا يُبَيِّنُ لَكُمْ كَثِيراً مِّمَّا كُنْتُمْ تُخْفُونَ مِنَ ٱلْكِتَابِ وَيَعْفُواْ عَن كَثِيرٍ قَدْ جَآءَكُمْ مِّنَ ٱللَّهِ نُورٌ وَكِتَابٌ مُّبِينٌ }
Translation of the Meanings of the Quran by Arthur J. Arberry
{[5]People of the Book, now there has come to you Our Messenger, making clear to you many things you have been concealing of the Book, and effacing many things. There has come to you from God a light, and a Book Manifest}
Kai replies:
Concealing what?
Muslim gladiator wrote:
Is not that what Muhammad Asad the converted Jewish Journalist into Islam said in its comment for verse [5].
Kai replies:
Asad is not God!
Muslim gladiator wrote:
SO, the Quran come to assure that is an order in their book but they did not take it like an order.
Kai replies:
What kind order, to encourage us to add fairytales and human commentators, YOU MUST BE JOKING; THE KORAN DOES IT, BUT DON’T EVEN SUGGEST THAT WE GET DOWN TO YOUR LEVEL (to permit corruption).
Muslim gladiator wrote:
Finally depending on Mishnah, Sanhedrin is a hudge problem for the New Testmant. As you see there is not problem with the Quran.
Kai replies:
Why should a Jewish commentary provide a problem for the New Testament; and then again if the Mishnah destroys the New Testament, then the Koran sink with it.
IF YOU POSSESS THESE VIEW, WHY ARE STILL A MUSLIM?
Muslim gladiator wrote:
Mark and Matthew indicate that the trial before the Sanhedrin occurred at night and a capital trial at night was illegal. Mishnah Sanhedrin 4.1 confirms the illegality of a capital trial at night, assuming that the law stated in the Mishnah existed in 30 C.E.
Mark indicates that the charge against Jesus was blasphemy: "You have heard the blasphemy (Mark 14:64)." Under Mishnah Tractate 7.5, blasphemy consists only of uttering the name of God, so there is reason to question whether in fact that was the charge against Jesus. If it is assumed to be the charge, however, Mishhah Tractate 7.4 makes clear that execution by stoning was an available option for such a crime.
For more about this subject go there,
http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/project ... edrin.html
So, as you see the Mishnah Sanhedrin is a problem for the Bible. One of them should be right Mishnah Sanhedrin or the New Testament. Choose.
And that is why a Jewish Professor stated in BBC News, it is impossible that Jesus put on the Cross for death because according to Moses law he should be stoned plus what is in Mishnah , read that [Deuteronomy 13:1-6], [ Deuteronomy 17, 2-7].
Kai replies:
You are forgetting the historical implications:
The trial was held in secret for a reason; if the religious leaders were scared of prosecuting him publicly they would obviously be scared to execute him publicly.
Otherwise there are also historians who state that execution but stoning was banned when religious festivals took place, basically to avoid uproar.
Muslim gladiator wrote:
Let me end my article with this verse about the converted people although Allah stated the term “People of the Book”
Quran 3:199
{ وَإِنَّ مِنْ أَهْلِ ٱلْكِتَابِ لَمَن يُؤْمِنُ بِٱللَّهِ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيْهِمْ خَاشِعِينَ للَّهِ لاَ يَشْتَرُونَ بِآيَاتِ ٱللَّهِ ثَمَناً قَلِيلاً أُوْلۤـٰئِكَ لَهُمْ أَجْرُهُمْ عِندَ رَبِّهِمْ إِنَّ ٱللَّهَ سَرِيعُ ٱلْحِسَابِ }
{[3]And some there are of the People of the Book who believe in God, and what has been sent down unto you, and what has been sent down unto them, men humble to God, not selling the signs of God for a small price; those -- their wage is with their Lord; God is swift at the reckoning.}
Kai replies:
Exactly, that is my point, the Koran merely states that there were some Jews who were not corrupted Scipture; then in what sense can you so emphatically suggest that the Torah is corrupted; and how about the Injeel?
I think I have replied and debunked virtually every argument you brought up so far, except for those Arabic phrases you have to translate (except for the phrases where I need more clarification).