Christian/Muslim ThreadsScholar Bart Ehrman confess that the Bible we have is .... :: First Reply, About (Surah 10, Verse 94)First Reply, About (Surah 10, Verse 94) And I reply, First of all Kai Hagbard do not talk about interpolating the text; dishonesty. I am not the person who wrote this verse in the Bible like that: Deuteronomy 33:2 (King James Version) {2And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.} Then I assured in in another version to be like that, Deuteronomy 33:2 (American Standard Version) 2 And he said, Jehovah came from Sinai, And rose from Seir unto them; He shined forth from mount Paran, And he came from the ten thousands of holy ones: At his right hand was a fiery law for them. Then after a while I changed my mind and I translated it to be like that, {2The LORD came from Mount Sinai. From Edom, he gave light to his people, and his glory was shining from Mount Paran. Thousands of his warriors were with him, and fire was at his right hand.} Where is the term “ten" in ECV Kai Hagbard ??? To solve this problem, there is one of three things we should chose, The First is, The term "ten" was not existed in the main manuscripts and the translators discovered this error, so they omitted it. And the question here is, why did this term insert in these versions? Who put it? And why a new version like (American Standard Version) still keeps it? The second is, The term "ten" is still in the main manuscripts and the translators for the ECV omitted is in purpose. And in this case we should know why? The translators of ECV did not say any thing about the term "ten" in their comment in their Bible. All what they say, "Thousands...right hand: One possible meaning for the difficult Hebrew text". Does that mean until now 2005, the translators can not understand the real meaning of the texts? And if that was one of the possible meanings, what are the other meanings for this verse? And if that was the best way to translate the verse, why other translators for other versions choose something else? The third is, The term "ten" is existed in some main manuscripts and it is not in others! And what is really why persons who studied the Bible a long term do not believe in it anymore like, Bart Ehram (The chairman of the religious studies department at the University of North Carolina in Chapel Hill, USA.) The most interesting thing really, all of the versions still selling in all the entire world as a word of God. I do not want to go so far in this; otherwise I will leave the main subject, But if you wanted more, you can just simply compare the version between each other. I choused this example because it spoke about a number, which it is so hard to be translated it in another a different way. I just wanted to give you Kai Habard an example for the meaning of dishonesty and interpolating the text then selling it as a word of God. More examples with evidences from the New Testament are coming in my next articles InshaAllah. Now, let me explain the again, and InshaAllah(God Willing) you can get it from this time, Quran came to us in Arabic, a very clear Arabic. (Surah 26, Verse 125) The translation of the meanings of the Quran: {195. In the plain Arabic language.} So as long as you did not understand the translations for the meanings for the Quran, we can just simply go for the main context: (Surah 10, Verse 94) Quran فَإِنْ كُنْتَ فِي شَكٍّ مِمَّا أَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ فَاسْأَلِ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْ قَبْلِك َلَقَدْ جَاءَكَ الْحَقُّ مِنْ رَبِّكَ فَلَا تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْمُمْتَرِينَ Translation for the meanings for the Quran: (Surah 10, Verse 94) {[94] So if you (O Muhammad (peace be upon him)) are in doubt concerning that which We have revealed unto you, (i.e. that your name is written in the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) then ask those who are reading the Book (the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) before you. Verily, the truth has come to you from your Lord. So be not of those who doubt (it).} You accused me with dishonesty and interpolating of the text and that is the main context and my translation. Compare it yourself or ask anyone speaks Arabic and English to help u to translate it. Now about this verse which Christians take it and understand it but give other meanings for it. And I reply, that is not the Bible to do that. The translation for the meanings for the Quran says, {ask those who are reading the Book (the Taurât (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) before you} let me ask you a question Kai Hagbard, If you gave me a German book to read it, then I told you sorry, I can not speak German, ask someone who speaks German? Did I mean ask someone from Germany or anyone whatever its nationality who speaks German? Now, suppose I gave another reply and it was like that, "Ask German people." Do I mean just German people or anyone other nationalities speak German? The Quran stated the term "The People of the Book" many times in the Quran. Why did not the Quran state this term here? I tried before to explain for you what the verse was supposed to say if the verse was refering to the term “The People of the Book (Christians and Jews) in general. If you understood the verse well, you would not take this verse as evidence against Islam and lose points. Quran is very accurate in choosing its words and meanings. Do you still in need for more explanation? Okay. The verse talks about the doubt of our prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him) which might come to his heart about his Prophecy and what God has revealed to him. Have you imagined that God asked our Prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him) to go to the People of the Book whom did not confess with his prophecy to ask them if he was real a prophet and his name in their books? Did God ask our prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him) to hurt himself by hearing the People of the Book saying "Sorry, you are not in our Holy Book? Is that the best way of God to fix our prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him) on Islam? Of course He would not. The verse meant some people who believed in him and they would say the truth. They saw his name in the Holy Book when they believed in him. It means simply the people who have been converted to Islam at this time. And I gave a name for one of them ( عَبْد اللَّه بْن سَلَام ) Abdel Allah bin Salam. And my speech about this verse is old; actually that is what Muslims say 1400 years ago. Actually my speech is not old but your knowledge of Arabic and Quran are not strong. Read El-Tabari Tafsir, especially this part: الْقَوْل فِي تَأْوِيل قَوْله تَعَالَى : { فَإِنْ كُنْت فِي شَكّ مِمَّا أَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْك فَاسْأَلْ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَاب مِنْ قَبْلِك } يَقُول تَعَالَى ذِكْره لِنَبِيِّهِ مُحَمَّد صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ : فَإِنْ كُنْت يَا مُحَمَّد فِي شَكّ مِنْ حَقِيقَة مَا أَخْبَرْنَاك وَأُنْزِلَ إِلَيْك مِنْ أَنَّ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيل لَمْ يَخْتَلِفُوا فِي نُبُوَّتك قَبْل أَنْ تُبْعَث رَسُولًا إِلَى خَلْقه , لِأَنَّهُمْ يَجِدُونَك عِنْدهمْ مَكْتُوبًا وَيَعْرِفُونَك بِالصِّفَةِ الَّتِي أَنْتَ بِهَا مَوْصُوف فِي كِتَابهمْ فِي التَّوْرَاة وَالْإِنْجِيل ; فَاسْأَلْ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَاب مِنْ قَبْلِك مِنْ أَهْل التَّوْرَاة وَالْإِنْجِيل كَعَبْدِ اللَّه بْن سَلَام وَنَحْوه مِنْ أَهْل الصِّدْق وَالْإِيمَان بِك مِنْهُمْ دُون أَهْل الْكَذِب وَالْكُفْر بِك مِنْهُمْ . وَبِنَحْوِ الَّذِي قُلْنَا فِي ذَلِكَ قَالَ أَهْل التَّأْوِيل . ذِكْر مَنْ قَالَ ذَلِكَ : 13835 - حَدَّثَنَا الْقَاسِم , قَالَ : ثَنَا الْحُسَيْن , قَالَ : ثَنِي حَجَّاج , عَنْ اِبْن جُرَيْج , قَالَ : قَالَ اِبْن عَبَّاس , فِي قَوْله : { فَاسْأَلْ الَّذِينَ يَقْرَءُونَ الْكِتَاب مِنْ قَبْلِك } قَالَ : التَّوْرَاة وَالْإِنْجِيل الَّذِينَ أَدْرَكُوا مُحَمَّدًا صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ مِنْ أَهْل الْكِتَاب فَآمَنُوا بِهِ , ......... I do not know if you are blind or your can not see. Always Muslims say, This is a translation of the MEANINGS of the Quran. No one never say it is a translation for the Quran itself. Because of any Holy book can not be translated. That what Muslim say every day and night. Why? Simply because using other words can not be like the original term at all. For example, If the original context for any novel was like that: I got a new book Then I wrote it like that I had a new book or I obtained a new book for me a Muslim that is an interpolating for the context. Something else about this subject, Ever community has especial terms and if you tried to translate the words to another language, it will not make so sense, so the translators lead to translate the meanings. For example in English there is a term says "Knock on the wood" which means thanks God this stuff still work out. If I translated it like how it is for Arabic, it will not make any sense. Another term like "We will rock you" which means we will shake you and make you listen to us. If I tried to translate it into Arabic literally, it would not make sense. That is why Muslims say every day and night the Bible is just a translation which it lost a lot of its sense. It is not the real words of God. And some people understood some of its words like not how it should be. Anyways, return back to the verse, in the translation where the translator put the name of our prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him) to explain for those who does not understand Arabic the pronouns in the Original context. (You) means our prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him) otherwise from where did you get this verse belongs to our prophet (Peace and Mercy of Allah be upon him). We have no problem with each other about this verse belongs to our prophet. Putting some names and some phrase inside two practices for explanation is a famous thing in translation, And I will give an example from the Bible, one from Old Testament and another one from the New Testament, (2 Samuel 1:18),(King James Version) {18(Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)} Mark 5:13 (King James Version) {13And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand and were choked in the sea.} Mark 14:40 (King James Version) {40And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.} Tell me, why the translators of King James Version put brackets inside some their verses rather than is it for explanation? I hope you understand the verse much better now. Your challenge has been based on a wrong idea. Read what I have said before. But if you need another verses talked about the people who has been converted, Here we go, (Surah 7, Verse 157) (The translation of the Meanings of the Quran) {[157] Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e. Muhammad (peace be upon him)) whom they find written with them in the Taurât (Torah) (Deut, xviii, 15) and the Injeel (Gospel) (John xiv, 16), - he commands them for Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism and all that Islâm has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and all that Islâm has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Taiyibât ((i.e. all good and lawful) as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods), and prohibits them as unlawful Al-Khabâ'ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods), he releases them from their heavy burdens (of Allâh's Covenant), and from the fetters (bindings) that were upon them. So those who believe in him (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) honor him, help him, and follow the light (the Qur'ân) which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful.} (Surah 5, Verse 83) (The translation of the meanings of the Quran) {[83] And when they (who call themselves Christians) listen to what has been sent down to the Messenger (Muhammad (peace be upon him)) you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of the truth they have recognized. They say: "Our Lord! We believe; so write us down among the witnesses.} The translation of the meanings of (Surah 3) (Verse 113) {[113] Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of Allâh during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer.} I hope that be clear? Second time InshaAllah I will reply the points about the manuscripts of the Quran and sings of our Prophet in The Bible with evidences. |
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