Christian/Muslim ThreadsScholar Bart Ehrman confess that the Bible we have is ....Muslim gladiator wrote: Kai replies: You are right, Jesus Christ probably did not write any word in the Bible! However, he spoke the word. In Matthew 5 to take one example, he substitutes the Law with his own words and teachings. Elsewhere such as in the Book of Revelation 22 revelation belongs to him! I fail however to see how Luke confirms this I fail also to see why you remain a Muslim; that is of course if you approach a religion from this criteria! Did Muhammad according to Islam write the Qur’an? I thought he spoke it! Did Allah himself write the present Qur’an? No I thought he revealed it Then who compiled it? Well according to the traditions of the Hadiths, it was compiled by Muhammad’s followers Who wrote it? Well, not Allah, nor Muhammad, but Muhammad’s followers Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: There is not certainty whether Theophilus is a person or any reader Yet even though he wrote to an individual, what difference does it make? Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: Why not? Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: Well the oldest manuscript we have is included in the Chester Betty Papyrus, as a part of the other four Gospels; according to several scholars the 4 Gospels in Chester Betty are dated back to 150 AD. The Four Gospels in Chester Betty, which includes Luke is however a copy of another earlier copy. This is only one of many evidences. Let me put it this way, unless you can show me a main or the original Koran before it was corrupted by Zaid Ibn or the other compilers, I will presume that you deem your own challenge as proposed to me to be no any significance. Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: Look at my reply in a previous post on this thread Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: How do you prove this? This is what I mean by liberal theological speculation! The same argument can be applied to history generally including the Koran; hence I wonder if you are willing to continue to propose liberal theology, because in all honesty then, it has to be applied to all piece of literature! Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies:/b] I simply don’t get your point here! Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: Could you provide me with the actual proves that Paul has changed Christianity. I have red much on the matter, and never found anything to confirm this! Yeah, by all means lets look at them and see if they change Christianity Before we do, I again need to emphasis: 1. That if the book of Acts destroys Christianity then Islam gets debunked too! 2. Let me additionally point out that the Bible consists of 66 books; if you debunk one, it does not mean that the rest is discredited! 3. Do you assume that the writer of Act is so pathetic as to write three contradictions about the same event in the same book? Ok, lets see what you have to offer Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: The Greek word for voice here is phone, it can be translated in various ways whether voice or sound. In Matthew 2: 18 it is voice, in Revelation 6: 1 it is noise; e.g. in Matthew 24: 31 it is used for the sound of trumpets, in John 3: 8 is it used for the sound of wind and in Revelation 6: 1 for thunder. So now, we have explained the word, and how flexible it is! In the same way the word hear ‘akouo’ is a flexible word; it can mean hear in general (Matthew 2: 3), to listen (Mark 12: 27) and to understand with the mind (Matthew 11: 15) (John 8: 43) (1 Cor.14: 2) and even to perform what is spoken (Matthew 18: 16). Hence both ‘hear’ and ‘understand’ are correct Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: There is no problem here Let’s look at the issue of the light and appearance first According to Acts 22: 8-9 they saw the light, ok But there is no contradiction between the passages, since Acts 9: 7 does not state that the men did not see light, Acts 9: 7 it states that they did not see anyone. Does that ring a bell? Hallooooo, light and anyone? Could you please inform us how these possibly relate to the same thing? Ok, having dealt with this issue: the men saw a light but did not see anyone; in this there is no contradiction. How about the hearing or not hearing the sound or voice? As I have already pointed out, these words are flexible, the word phone can refer to a sound such as the sound of wind or a trumpet or a voice. Then the question we need to ask is: what did the men hear or understand (akouo); certainly they heard something, and certainly there was something they were unable to understand. In Acts 9: 7 hearing someone is related to not seeing anyone, in contrast to Acts 22 where they did not hear a sound but saw the light. If we make an analogy of revelation of this kind in the Bible, such as John 12: 27-30, where a voice from heaven speaks to Jesus, we see that Jesus perceived or understood the voice clearly, yet those who were present heard only a sound like thunder. In Acts 9 and 22 those present heard a sound, but did not perceive a voice, They saw a light but did not see anyone. This can hardly be perceived as contradiction. Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: As I have already pointed out both are correct, the word is flexible! Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: I fail to see the error you are proposing; just because a passage excludes mentioning something, are we to assume it never occurred; so what if Paul did not elaborate on those with him at this occasion, does it contradict the previous texts. Should we not then, apply the same argument on history and passages in the Koran? What would then be left of the Koran? Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: As I have pointed out the incidents do not differ, secondly as to the translations and their use of flexible words there is no contradiction. How many translations of the Koran have you ever read? Have you noticed the none of them is similar? Is it because of contradictions? No! The problem relates to flexible words! Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: I think I have Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: I think I have Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: Are we not deviating from the actual subject? In fact you bring up so many subjects that we fail to effectively assess one of them! Muslim gladiator wrote:
Kai replies: That’s what I have been trying to tell you all a long |
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