Please specify how this relates to chronology it simply states a large part of the koran maybe lost, how do you get that the large part implies chronology
First of all, did you read the other hadiths I gave you in the links? Second of all, yes, in the hypothetical situation posed in the hadith, the fear was that so many Muslims would die that there would not be enough full memorizers to verify its transmission. (If you read about what the most authenticated form of transmission is, you'd know how many need to authenticate it and from however many different areas and so on)
In other words you have conflicting hadiths and you chose to believe which ever one makes logical sense to you so whenever you find something in islam that contradicts itself you just interpret it as you want to and still believe it comes from God without looking at the alternative scenario that hold on why would God and his apostle/followers contradict themselves, you also mention it was equally authentic and there I was thinking you were going to say it was a weak hadith.
Choose? Are you reading ANY of the links I'm posting? How are you ever going to understand what happened if you're basing this whole conversation on what you only think is reliable info?
In other words you pick and chose which part you believe in and claim to be the more knowledgeable, that website basically says ask an iman who knows better, with that mind set you can justify any islamic belief just find an iman to agree with you.
It's always better to ask a scholar who's memorized the Qur'an and hundreds of thousands of hadiths than to flip open a Sahih Muslim book of hadith and start making your own interpretations.
Here,
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm
Put yourself in the jew or christian shoes for a second and imagine how ridiculous your stance is that the pagan arabs really had the true message of God, even though they were idolaters. (Also notice how I didn't refer you to a 17 page document on a website, with 90% of data completely irrelevant to the topic in hand, is this your idea of discussion to just refer the opposition to a website link, what is the point of a discussion if all you do is refer to a mass document completely irrelevant to the topic)
Because people have dealt with these issues thoroughly and academically.
Unless you enjoy trading baseless allegations and having conversations with me without ever gaining any new information, then I suggest you sit down and do some reading, as much as possible.
so Jesus was put to death because He was about to expose the corruption in the torah denying the divine unity and return the jews to the mosaic laws as revealed to Moses
He wasn't put to death, though this was the intention. Also, he wasn't just ABOUT to expose, he DID. The early Unitarian followers of Jesus (pbuh) are a testament to this, they all lived by the Mosaic laws.
and the corruption was done on such a large scale that it has Jesus quoting from the corrupted torah in the new testament, if this is what is in your book it is not worth the effort to read dare I say it, it is plain ridiculous.
This is EXACTLY why I link you to pages. When I give you a short paragraph summary, it's too abrupt and incoherent. When I give you a link, it's too long for you to read. You should read the book exactly SO you can get more background information. Nice reasoning though.
Please elaborate on the non-prophetic abrogations in judaism and christianity.
How many laws do Jews and Christians still follow even from what is contained in their Scriptures. I don't even mean regular people, how many do Rabbis and Priests say are still laws that they should live by?
I am asking you to apply some logical sense to this sura I am not asking you to refer me to an islamic apologist website with mass produced irrelevant material, look at the above sura and ask yourself if someone was being asked a lot of questions and he just wanted to be left alone, doesn't it look like he just made it up?. Think, this is for all mankind what on earth does this command about not raising your voice above the voice of the prophet have to do with a message for all mankind?
You should have read the link because it answered your question on shifts from first to third person and so on. In addition, many verses were revealed specific to the time of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh), especially ones about the Hypocrites in the community, the battles with the pagans, and so on. Does this one verse apply to humanity today? Obviously not. In fact, that's one thing many don't understand, they pick a verse about the battles with the pagans and say "see, this is what Muslims are commanded to do all day long"
Show me one prophecy in your koran.
This is a major one.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/defeat_romans.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/rela ... n&qid=1342
Also, the hadith texts contain many prophecies of the End Times.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/p ... es_muh.htm
Let me guess you are going to tell me about bacteriophages and how they conflict with other pathogens, please explain how this or indeed whatever is in the wing pouches of flies will have the cure for a disease that you have to dip in the fly in your soup, please don't refer me to a website just tell me what you know. (BTW the fact that you are willing to justify this stupidity of a hadith tells me I am dealing with a fundy, you should have stuck with your usual stance that is it a weak hadith, if you are going to take offence at me calling that hadith stupid I ask you to ask any health care worker what they suggest about dipping flies in your soup and see what they will think of you)
I'm not going to make conjectures because I'm not that familiar with biology but I'm also not going to say a hadith is weak just because I'm not sure about it. Also, I think it's clear that if the hadith is understood figuratively, as many regarding prophecies ought to be, it's impressive.
A prophecy that means in the last days muslim will kill jews? what relevance does that hadith have to do with Jesus?
The anti-Christ precedes Jesus (pbuh) and MANY people mistake the anti-Christ to be the Messiah (as this is one of his claims). The followers of the anti-Christ fight against those who follow Jesus (pbuh) when he returns, until Jesus (pbuh) destroys the anti-Christ.
www.jesuswillreturn.com
How convenient, you know with such thinking you can basically justify anything you want, I can claim that baal is the one true god and everybody else corrupted his one true teaching or zoroaster or ashura mazda or mithra.
If you want to blinder yourself from everything else that revelation states, then yes, you COULD claim that. I wouldn't base my life on that, though.
Good point bear that in mind next time you refer to a website
Don’t' get me wrong, I'm going to continue to post reliable links about Islam and the Qur'an. What I was saying is that the internet is full of assaults on the Bible by all kinds of people, I'll leave you to do your own research in that regard.
Tell me what is spiritual in chanting prayers in arabic which a great many muslims don't understand it
They SHOULD understand it. Arabic is used when reciting Qur'an so that an equivocation or translation isn't used instead. Muslims believe in literalness that the Qur'an as it was revealed is the word of God. Some people make supplication in whatever language they like.
running around the ka'ba, or doing acts an odd number of times
A lot of people don't understand the importance of demonstrating complete obedience to God. Muslims take their religion more seriously than anything else, and strive to obey God and emulate the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) in his acts of worship as he is the benchmark for mankind.
Dr. Mustafa as-Siba'i
The Sunnah and its Position in the Islamic Sharee'ah
As-Sunnah wa Makaanatuhaa fit-Tashree` al-Islaamee Translated by: Ahmed M. Hashim
The Companions of the Prophet (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) used to take the ruling on different matters in their lives from the Qur'ân, which they use to learn from the messenger of Allah, Muhammad (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam). In many instances, the aayaah (verses) of the Qur'ân treat a subject in a general manner without a specific condition. Sometimes the aayaah will come as an absolute ruling without any precondition or limitation required by time, place, etc. As an example of what came in a general way in the Qur'ân is the Salaah. The Qur'ân does not mention how many Rak`ahs (units of prayer) we should make, or how to physically move during prayer, or the time for prayer. Similarly, the Qur'ân does not mention the minimum amount of money to have before giving Zakaah (charity) or the conditions by which to pay it. Many of our `Ibaadaah cannot be performed without stopping at the explanations related to the regulations, pillars, and conditions of nullification. It is thus a must to return to Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) to know the rules in a comprehensive and clear manner.
Many times, the Companions faced incidents in which the Qur'ân which had no ruling, and there was a need to return to the Prophet (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) to know the ruling of such matters. It was the Prophet who was ordered by Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) to teach humanity, and it is the Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.s) who is the most knowledgeable of mankind about that which Allah subhaanahuwata`aalaa expects from us.
Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) has told us about the duty of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) with respect to the Qur'ân, where Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) said:
"And We have sent down unto thee (also) the Message; that thou mayest explain clearly to men what is sent for them, and that they may give thought." [Qur'ân 16:44]
Allah also made it clear to us that the duty of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) is to clarify the truth to people when there is a dispute:
"And We sent down the Book to thee for the express purpose, that thou should make clear to them those things in which they differ, and that it should be a guide and a mercy to those who believe." [Qur'ân 16:64]
We are obligated to follow any ruling by Rasoolullaah Muhammad (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) in any dispute:
"But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." [Qur'ân 4:65]
Allah also mentioned that Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) was given the Qur'ân and Wisdom to teach people the regulations of their religion:
"Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them an apostle from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error." [Qur'ân 3:164]
Regarding the last aayaah, most scholars and those of great knowledge said that the wisdom mentioned in the aayaah means another thing besides the Qur'ân. It is what Allah subhaanahuwata`aalaa has given Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) from the knowledge of matters and regulations that the rest of humanity can not attain. Imaam Ash-Shafi'ee rahimahullah has said that "Allah subhaanahuwata`aalaa has mentioned the scripture which is the Qur'ân, and he mentioned wisdom and I have learned from the people of knowledge that the wisdom here is the Sunnah of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam). It is from the mercy of Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) that He has sent to us a way to practice what is in the Qur'ân."
Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) did not stop by saying scripture only, but the inclusion of the Sunnah with the Qur'ân is an indication of its important and the obligation on us to follow it as we have to follow the Qur'ân. Imaam Ash-Shafi'ee goes on saying that the letter 'wa' ('and' between Scripture and Wisdom in the aayaah) is a letter of conjunctions in Arabic which requires that the two parts it joins must be different otherwise the sentence will be redundant, and Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) is far away from that; Na`oodhubillaah. And so when Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) said that he has conferred a great favor on the believers, He does not confer anything that is not correct and truthful. Therefore, this wisdom must be followed as the Qur'ân, and Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) has never ordered us to follow anything but Him and His messenger Muhammad (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam). Which must mean that this wisdom is what came from Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) in the form of rules and sayings regarding legislation.
To clarify the Concept of Sunnah and our obligation to follow it, Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) said: "Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper." [Qur'ân 7:157]
Because this teaching is mentioned in general in this aayaah, then it must include the rules in the Qur'ân and Sunnah.
A very strong indicator of the obligation upon us to follow the Sunnah can be found in this aayaah: "...And whatsoever the Messenger (Muhammad (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) gives you, take it, and whatsoever he forbids you, abstain (from it) , and fear Allah. Verily, Allah is severe in punishment." [Qur'ân 59:7]
Allah has also made the obedience of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) in conjunction with the obedience to Him:
"And obey Allah and the Messenger, that ye may obtain mercy." [Qur'ân 3:132]
We are asked by Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) to answer any order by Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam):
"O ye who believe! give your response to Allah and His Messenger, when He calleth you to that which will give you life." [Qur'ân 8:24]
Allah made the obedience of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) an obedience to Him, and following Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) an indication of the love of Allah subhaanahuwata`aalaa:
"He who obeys the Messenger, obeys Allah." [Qur'ân 4:80]
"Say: If ye do love Allah, Follow me: Allah will love you and forgive you sins." [Qur'ân 3:31]
And Allah subhaanahuwata`aalaa warned us from not following the instructions of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam):
"Then let those beware who withstand the Messenger’s order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them." [Qur'ân 24:63]
Not only that, but Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) told us that disobeying Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) is Kufr (disbelief): "Say: Obey Allah and His Messenger.: But if they turn back, Allah loveth not those who reject Faith." [Qur'ân 3:32]
It was never allowed by Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) that a believer disobey Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam's) order:
"It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." [Qur'ân 33:36]
To show that not following the ruling of Rasoolullaah (sallallaahu`alaihiwasallam) when a dispute occurs is a sign of hypocrisy, Allah (subhaanahuwata`aalaa) says:
"They say, We believe in Allah and in the apostle, and we obey; but even after that, some of them turn away; they are not (really) Believers. When they are summoned to Allah and His apostle, in order that He may judge between them, behold some of them decline (to come)....The answer of the Believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey"; it is such as these that will attain felicity." [Qur'ân 24:47-51]
wearing islamic dressing suited for the 7th century do you not see this is more cultural than spiritual?
This would be considered cultural, except that some hadiths talk about the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) wearing a white cap and how this is Sunnah among other things.
All my material come from islam written by muslims.
Just because a Muslim wrote it, doesn't mean he is representing Islam. And just because a Muslim did it, doesn't mean he's following Islam properly.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLA ... adhhab.htm
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLA ... abstlk.htm
I read that website, I compared it to what the hadiths say, reading that website you get the impression that the angel cuddled him, "held him close to him lightly" is not implied in any way shape or form by the hadiths, does that make any sense?, he cuddled him to the point that he couldn't breathe and thought he was going to die, do you honestly think people would like to jump off a cliff after being cuddled three times?.
Good, keep reading:
http://www.prophetmuhammed.org/Biography.asp
http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Arti ... seerat.htm
You are giving more credit than what is due, just answer this question did Mohammed have access to jewish scriptures? yes or no
Depends on when in his life you're talking about, but yes, it's clearly not impossible that the Jewish tribes around Medina carried a Torah around with them.
http://www.ymofmd.com/books/prophethood ... _judao.htm
Yet you are prepared to dismiss (sahih) hadiths even though this above post says they have been rigorously authenticated when it suits you.
Ok, now you are seriously becoming incoherent. I wish you'd just read about what a hadith is, who SAYS when it is sahih, and what that means. And I'm not a hadith master, so I myself would never claim to be able to dismiss a hadith as fabricated when I don't have knowledge of it. But I can tell you that some of the hadiths you did post up there, are.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLAM/nuh/studyh.htm
I have read the details of many of the stories, how the pagan arabs and indeed many of the muslims were shocked that mohammed wanted to marry zaid's wife, and the ridiculousness of God blessing the 'lust' of a man for his son's wife and making sure his prophet got the wife of his son, it is just plain ridiculous to think that a God who punished David for adultery to the point that the sword never left his home would make sure mohammed obtained his adopted son's wife, a 6 year old girl " not yet ready for consumation" and steal, loot from hard working pagan businessmen
Wow, I don't even know where to start with this paragraph.
In the capacity of the last Prophet he married one woman namely Hadhrat Zaynab bint-i-Jahash (ra). Hadhrat Zainab bint-i-Jahash (ra) was also a cousin of the Prophet (pbuh). Before this marriage, Allah revealed the special injunction regarding the law governing the marriages of the Prophet (pbuh), removing the limit of four wives for him, so that he could fulfill his responsibilities in his different capacities. This marriage was prompted by a special incident. Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) got married to Hadhrat Zayed (ra) - the freed slave and adopted son of the Prophet (pbuh). This marriage took place on the insistence of the Prophet (pbuh), although Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) did not want it. The reason was that she belonged to the elite of Makkah and Hadhrat Zayed (ra) was a former slave. The marriage remained on rocks throughout the period that they lived together because Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) considered herself socially superior to Hadhrat Zayed (ra). Tired by their regular clashes and Hadhrat Zaynab's (ra) indifference towards him, Hadhrat Zayed (ra) showed his intention to divorce Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) time and again. However, the Prophet (pbuh) persuaded him not to do so, because he felt responsible for any mishap, as the marriage had taken place on his insistence. Secondly the message of equality of slaves and free humans that he wanted to practically communicate through this marriage would fail in case of divorce. Nevertheless, because of these troubles of the marriage, foreseeing divorce as inevitable in the near future, the Prophet (pbuh) was already considering to marry Hadhrat Zaynab (ra) if as the last resort the incident of divorce did take place, in order to console her (because the marriage had taken place on the Prophet's insistence). Moreover, keeping in mind the social status of slaves, it was highly unlikely that any person of a good social standing would take Hadhrat Zaynab in marriage, as she would then be a divorcee of a slave. The only reluctance, which the Prophet (pbuh) had in this regard, was that marriage with the divorcee or the widow of one's adopted son was considered prohibited, exactly like marriage with the divorcee or the widow of one's real son. However, ultimately, Hadhrat Zayed (ra) divorced Hadhrat Zaynab (ra). It was at this juncture that the Qur'an intervened and in order to correct the wrong tradition (of holding the divorcee or the widow of one's adopted son prohibited), the Prophet (pbuh) was directed to marry Hadhrat Zaynab. While directing the Prophet (pbuh) to marry Hadhrat Zaynab (ra), the Qur'an has specifically mentioned that because as the last prophet Mohammad (pbuh) is also supposed to correct all the wrong traditions that are followed in the name of the Shari`ah and thereby complete God's religion in totality, therefore it is essential that this tradition be corrected by the Prophet (pbuh).
his adopted son's wife, a 6 year old girl
I think you're confusing her with Ayesha (ra)…
http://www.understanding-islam.com/rela ... on&qid=375
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-032.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-004.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-005.htm
http://www.understanding-islam.com/ri/mi-006.htm
and steal, loot from hard working pagan businessmen
Or follow the command of God regarding peoples who were trying to end the true religion in the sight of God and murder His Prophet.
But this all depends on whether or not you want to believe. You remind me of an atheist who refused to believe in God because he said that God would never ask Abraham to kill his own son. All I can say is that the creation has no right upon the Creator. Only an arrogant person would ever think otherwise, and we all know where arrogance leads.
The answer of the Believers, when summoned to God and His Apostle, in order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: they say, "We hear and we obey": it is such as these that will attain felicity. It is such as obey God and His Apostle, and fear God and do right, that will win (in the end), (Qur'an 24:51-52)
Peace bro