But I explicitly told you that the chronology and order of the chapters of the Qur'an is irrelevant, and that's what the hadith is referring to. The chapters of the Qur'an were never recited in a particular order during the life of the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and that's what Zaid was hesitant about doing.
I am amazed that anybody reading this hadith sees chronology or an implication of chronology implied by the hadith
bukhari 6 201 (Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it [Please specify how this relates to chronology it simply states a large part of the koran maybe lost, how do you get that the large part implies chronology?] . And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an."
your whole premise fails unless you want to cut the hand that feeds you and claim this sahih (authentic) hadith is a lie and what islamic imams, and scholars claim is second only to the koran as inspired is also a lie you will be flying in the face of 90%+ of islam your stance that the koran was written as Mohammed said it and collected it into a book is a blatant fabrication, unless of course you have the original animal skin, barks of wood and leaves Zaid got the koran from.
First of all, please understand what the hadith is saying. Then read the above sites which contain equally authentic hadiths regarding how in fact the Prophet (pbuh) DID oversee the transcription of the Qur'an and its memorization.
In other words you have conflicting hadiths and you chose to believe which ever one makes logical sense to you so whenever you find something in islam that contradicts itself you just interpret it as you want to and still believe it comes from God without looking at the alternative scenario that hold on why would God and his apostle/followers contradict themselves, you also mention it was equally authentic and there I was thinking you were going to say it was a weak hadith.
Bro this is one major misconception. Just because one finds something in Al Tabari or Sahih Bukhary or Muslim doesn't mean they can issue fatwas with it. There are hundreds of thousands of hadiths, and the four main sunni schools of thought use them but still have debates over their classifications. You might want to read this:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/masud/ISLA ... abstlk.htm
In other words you pick and chose which part you believe in and claim to be the more knowledgeable, that website basically says ask an iman who knows better, with that mind set you can justify any islamic belief just find an iman to agree with you.
Do you realise what you are saying suppose the priests of baal baptised their disciples in animal blood, and John the baptist baptises his followers in water they must have come from the same source??
Actually that's exactly what I'm NOT saying. This is what Believer constantly says as he just likes to find similarities in accounts and rites and link them. What I'm saying is don't be like him and exclude the third possibility which is that similarities in rites could be due to the fact that they are linked by a central message, and not that WHENEVER you find a similarity that they are linked by a central message.
I would like to show you something from the previous revelations:
"I am the Lord; that is my name! I will not give my glory to another or my praise to idols" Isa 42:8
"we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone—an image made by man’s design and skill. In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17:29-30).
1 cortinthians 10:14 Wherefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.
Put yourself in the jew or christian shoes for a second and imagine how ridiculous your stance is that the pagan arabs really had the true message of God, even though they were idolaters. (Also notice how I didn't refer you to a 17 page document on a website, with 90% of data completely irrelevant to the topic in hand, is this your idea of discussion to just refer the opposition to a website link, what is the point of a discussion if all you do is refer to a mass document completely irrelevant to the topic)
What you say about Jesus bringing the jews back to the religion of Moses am afraid is not remotely true, Jesus was a jew He used the same scripture as any other jew, He was not here to bring back or take back the messages to some phantom religious practice He was here to fulfill what was already written about Him.
I suggest you read the book I recommended at the beginning of this thread. One of Jesus (pbuh) missions was the return the Jews to the Mosaic Laws as they had been revealed to Moses, which had since changed by the time Jesus (pbuh) was born. The changes were part of the reason why many Jews could not even recognize Jesus (pbuh) to be the foretold Messiah as the criteria had been distorted.
I have heard of conspiracy theories but this one has got to take the biscuit, so Jesus was put to death because He was about to expose the corruption in the torah denying the divine unity and return the jews to the mosaic laws as revealed to Moses?, and the corruption was done on such a large scale that it has Jesus quoting from the corrupted torah in the new testament, if this is what is in your book it is not worth the effort to read dare I say it, it is plain ridiculous.
previous revelations says God is unchanging along comes islam with this brand new law of abrogation that occurred several times over a 22 year period, the rational man must ask himself would an Omniscient and Eternal God abrogate anything He had said within a 22 year period while in the previous 2 revelations there isn't one incidence of abrogation? have you you honestly asked yourself this?
or one thing, abrogation by God Himself isn't at all a point of contention. It's much better than non-Prophetic abrogations which we saw in Judaism and Christianity after the lives of Moses (pbuh) and Jesus (pbuh).
Please elaborate on the non-prophetic abrogations in judaism and christianity.
I am well aware that verse is alledgedly from allah
Not only is it FROM God, it is God speaking those words in that particular passage. Often God commands Muhammad (pbuh) to say things in the Qur'an.
when do you differentiate who is allah and who is mohammed?
sura 49:1 Believers, do not behave presumptuously in the presence of God and His Apostle. Have fear of God: God hears all and knows all. Believers, do not raise your voices above the voice of the Prophet, nor shout aloud when speaking to him as you do to one another....
I am asking you to apply some logical sense to this sura I am not asking you to refer me to an islamic apologist website with mass produced irrelevant material, look at the above sura and ask yourself if someone was being asked a lot of questions and he just wanted to be left alone, doesn't it look like he just made it up?. Think, this is for all mankind what on earth does this command about not raising your voice above the voice of the prophet have to do with a message for all mankind?
Would you care to show us the prophecies in the KORAN how it relates to all mankind as opposed to the previous revelations let us discuss it.
Can you expand on this? What do you mean here?
Show me one prophecy in your koran.
Are you one of those that are prepared to defend the scientific miracle of flies carrying an antidote on one wing and a poison on the other and dipping them in your soup will cure the disease?
I'm familiar with this hadith. How much do you know about what is contained in the wing pouches of flies. You should look into that.
Let me guess you are going to tell me about bacteriophages and how they conflict with other pathogens, please explain how this or indeed whatever is in the wing pouches of flies will have the cure for a disease that you have to dip in the fly in your soup, please don't refer me to a website just tell me what you know. (BTW the fact that you are willing to justify this stupidity of a hadith tells me I am dealing with a fundy, you should have stuck with your usual stance that is it a weak hadith, if you are going to take offence at me calling that hadith stupid I ask you to ask any health care worker what they suggest about dipping flies in your soup and see what they will think of you)
See my above post about the children of the bond woman, your hadiths say the last day won't come until jews are killed and trees say oh servant of allah there is a jew behind me come and kill him, where is the line drawn in islam between politics and religion?
Actually, that hadith is a prophecy and not a command. You have to consider this in the context of who will follow the anti-Christ to fight against Jesus (pbuh).
A prophecy that means in the last days muslim will kill jews? what relevance does that hadith have to do with Jesus?
Would you care to elaborate how the ways of Abraham, Moses differs from the current jews?
The details are as lost as the true teachings of Jesus (pbuh) were it not for the revelation of the Qur'an.
How convenient, you know with such thinking you can basically justify anything you want, I can claim that baal is the one true god and everybody else corrupted his one true teaching or zoroaster or ashura mazda or mithra.
By all means show us the contradictions chances are it has been dealt with numerous times over.
I'm not going to turn my thread into a link spamming of the lack of authenticity of the Bible and its textual contradictions, the internet is rife with that, but I would warn against the false comfort of thinking that since it has been "dealt with" numerous times over that it has been dealt with comprehensively or accurately.
Good point bear that in mind next time you refer to a website
you eat the food it gives you sustenance to keep going, you carry the food long enough it accumulates to the point that it becomes a heavy load, that is what christianity is about spirituality eating and living by the eaten food, the word of God, not doing acts in odd numbers.
Islam, then, is about spirituality AND obeying the commands of God,
Tell me what is spiritual in chanting prayers in arabic which a great many muslims don't understand it, or running around the ka'ba, or doing acts an odd number of times, or wearing islamic dressing suited for the 7th century do you not see this is more cultural than spiritual?
I have looked at the messenger and I am still amazed people would blindly follow an individual whose whole lifestyle is dubious purely on humanistic levels alone, someone who sanctions rape, looting, slavery, and taboo sexual conduct even for his own era alledgedly blessed by his god cannot possibly be following the same God he contradicts in the two previous revelations.
And so long as you base your beliefs on questionable hadiths and the writings of colonialists who intended to besmear religion, you'll always be misguided.
All my material come from islam written by muslims.
Let us use some logic into this, someone says to you "recite" you say "what shall I recite?", the being then suddenly attacks you for no reason, he didn't even give you a scroll to recite from ( and we know you are very good at reciting we have 116 chapters of your recitations) yet the being attacks you for giving him the only answer you can "what shall I recite?", is this kind of being from God, would God suddenly just manhandle you for no reason like this?
The alternative scenario "read" "I cannot read", so an all knowing and omniscient God would suddenly ask a man who doesn't know how to read to read?
You have not even bothered to address the serious allegation of lying in the conflicting accounts in bukhari, tabari and muslim, these are the same people that wrote your koran.
I read that website, I compared it to what the hadiths say, reading that website you get the impression that the angel cuddled him, "held him close to him lightly" is not implied in any way shape or form by the hadiths, does that make any sense?, he cuddled him to the point that he couldn't breathe and thought he was going to die, do you honestly think people would like to jump off a cliff after being cuddled three times?.
Question:
Please explain the following Qur'anic verse:
"...nor sell my revelations for a trifling price...." (2:41)
Answer:
It basically warns against ignoring the verses of the Almighty for the petty reason of love of this world. In other words, the Qur'an is telling us that when the Almighty demands from us sacrifice for the sake of religion, like spending wealth in his way, or accepting the opinion of someone whom we otherwise don't like, we have to, indeed, sacrifice our wealth or pride. Those who don't respond to the Almighty's call, are, as if, selling the Almighty's verses and purchasing petty worldly gains in exchange. The Jews, who are the direct addressees of this verse, were especially guilty of this crime, when they refused to accept prophet Muhammad (pbuh)as the messenger of Allah. And this for the petty reason that they did not want to accept a prophet from Bani Isma'il, who they thought was an inferior race to theirs.
are you going to claim Mohammed had no access to jewish scriptures? why is this sura there what does it mean by not taking a mean price in exchange for my scriptures, think about it logically, where did Mohammed get all his biblical stories from? did he pay for it? why did he ask Zaid to study the book of the people of the book?
You are giving more credit than what is due, just answer this question did Mohammed have access to jewish scriptures? yes or no
So the misconception of the pagan arabs, the early muslims and indeed most of the world in this day and age felt it was taboo to marry your son's wife, but Mohammed was the one to gain sexually from this and justified it
Mohammed was also to gain by taking 5% of booty regardless of wether it was the sacred month of rahab
Explain how this is leniency, to whom? what kind of a messenger from God is this that his god takes every occasion to bless him with sexual exploits?
But in fact there are a number of other hadiths, all of them well authenticated (hasan) or rigorously authenticated (sahih)
Yet you are prepared to dismiss (sahih) hadiths even though this above post says they have been rigorously authenticated when it suits you.
Also, you're the only one sexualizing the stories. In addition, if you're claiming that the Prophet was advantaged by Islam, the Prophet didn't NEED Islam to legitimize his marriages, since pagan Arabia didn't even think twice about fornication what would be the point about going through the observances of marriage? Most importantly, you should accurately read about the details of that marriage:
I have read the details of many of the stories, how the pagan arabs and indeed many of the muslims were shocked that mohammed wanted to marry zaid's wife, and the ridiculousness of God blessing the 'lust' of a man for his son's wife and making sure his prophet got the wife of his son, it is just plain ridiculous to think that a God who punished David for adultery to the point that the sword never left his home would make sure mohammed obtained his adopted son's wife, a 6 year old girl " not yet ready for consumation" and steal, loot from hard working pagan businessmen