Christian/Muslim Threadsa must read
According to Sahih(authentic) bukhari 6 201 (Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it. And I am of the opinion that you should collect the Qur'an." Abu Bakr added, "I said to 'Umar, 'How can I do something which Allah's Apostle has not done?' 'Umar said (to me), 'By Allah, it is (really) a good thing.' So 'Umar kept on pressing, trying to persuade me to accept his proposal, till Allah opened my bosom for it and I had the same opinion as 'Umar." (Zaid bin Thabit added Umar was sitting with him (Abu Bakr) and was not speaking. me). "You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness): and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect Bakr) had ordered me to shift one of the mountains (from its place) it would not have been harder for me than what he had ordered me concerning the collection of the Qur'an. I said to both of them, "How dare you do a thing which the Prophet has not done?" Abu Bakr said, "By Allah, it is (really) a good thing. So I kept on arguing with him about it till Allah opened my bosom for that which He had opened the bosoms of Abu Bakr and Umar. So I started locating Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leaf-stalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who knew it by heart). I found with Khuzaima two Verses of Surat-at-Tauba which I had not found with anybody else, (and they were):-- "Verily there has come to you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty He (Muhammad) is ardently anxious over you (to be rightly guided)" (9.128) The manuscript on which the Quran was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with 'Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, Umar's daughter. If you still want to claim the prophet oversaw the chronology or indeed the final collected koran you are going to have to dismiss this sahih (authentic) hadith as a fabrication. The reading ways of Quran dictionary: (moa'agim alqera'at alqura'nia): This extrract is from an Arabic book written by Islamic scholars and published by Kuwait University in 8 volumes, first edition 1982 (Arabic) the authors: Dr. Abdal'al Salem Makrem Dr. Ahmed Mokhtar Omar They are Arabic language professors in Kuwait Univ. The publisher is: Zat Alsalasel - Kuwait Introduction: There is a lot of Quran books [massahif] written till the day of Othman Ibn Afaan, he burn the other books and he keep one authorized copy. For example there is: Quran according to Ali bin abi talib According to Ibn Mass'oud According to Aobi bin ka'ab That does not mean that these people WRITE the Quran; this does mean that they are a references for how the Quran could be read. There is 7 ways to read the Quran (according to the verse about the 7 letters in the Quran [alssib' ailmithani]) + 3 other ways "completed" (mokimila) + 4 additional, they call it abnormal [shaza]. The 7 ways readers and their disciple: Nafaa': Qalon + Warsh Ibn Kathir: Albizi + Qonbil Abi amro: Aldori + Alsosi Ibn Amer: Ibn Aban + Ibn Thkwan Assemm: Abo Biker + Hafas Alkessa'i: Allith + Aldori Hamza: Albizaz + Abo Isa Alsirfi The 3 ways readers and there disciple: Abo Ji'faar: Ibn Wardan + Ibn Jmaz Yaccob: Rois + Roh Khalif: Almrozi + Iddres The 4 ways readers and their disciple: Ibn Mohisn: Albizi + Ibn Shinboz Alyazidi: Soliman Ibn Alhakam + Ahmed Bin Farah Alhassan Albassry: Abo Na'im Albalkhi + Aldori Ala'mash: Amotodi + Alshinbzi Alshttaoi Today's Quran which all we use is according to Aobi bin ka'ab. I suggest you read what you said about recording the words of the prophet as he speaks them in his presence that was the basis of your whole argument since the disciples didn't do this for Jesus aaah they must have corrupted what He said years later, by implication THIS WAS NOT DONE for mohammed but this hadith proves Mohammed never saw the final koran, he didn't oversee anything done to it, your whole premise fails unless you want to cut the hand that feeds you and claim this sahih (authentic) hadith is a lie and what islamic imams, and scholars claim is second only to the koran as inspired is also a lie you will be flying in the face of 90%+ of islam your stance that the koran was written as Mohammed said it and collected it into a book is a blatant fabrication, unless of course you have the original animal skin, barks of wood and leaves Zaid got the koran from. Lets just say I am curious as to your religious sect within islam to dismiss Al Tabari as a fabrication ( I don't need to tell you that the sunnah is mandatory on all muslims which al tabari's 30 volume work ranks highly as a part of), I suggest you read what http://www.sunnah.org has to say about Al Tabari and his 30 volumes of islamic history right to the companions of the prophet before you dismiss all he has to say as fabrication, in light of the koran it explains where the verses come from the environment surrounding their creation it is an exposé on islam from a notable muslim historian, all his material was collected before the hadiths without Tabari, Ishaq and the hadiths you are so quick to dismiss islam has no skeleton it would be like being a christian without any of the gospels, in fact the hadiths obtain material from him, and many suspect he used the same hadith science you refer to obtain his material. Think about it why would someone before any hadith had been collected an acknowledged muslim historian scholar and eminated to the point that he could be trusted to issue out laws (mujtahid mutlaq) by all authors and scholars of the tabaqat much like Aisha go out of his way to tell lies about islam?
First off I would like you to produce some archelogical or historical proof of any kind whatsoever that Abraham was circumnavigating the ka'ba other than your koran. Do you realise what you are saying suppose the priests of baal baptised their disciples in animal blood, and John the baptist baptises his followers in water they must have come from the same source?? John must have been following the original message of the priests of baal, and the unity in baal, they must be preaching from the same pedestal. Something you fail to seperate montotheism is nothing new to islam, zoroaster was practicing monotheism, even baal worship can be seen as a form of monotheism, don't you think the devil wants to be worshipped and he alone wants to be worshipped, how does someone differentiate between the devil's form of monotheism and the real God's form of monotheism unless we check the messages and see which one has held true for all time. Why on earth would God change His mind as much as the islamic god, first off allah says pray towards jerusalem then he changes his mind to mecca, this flies in the face of an Omnisicient God who reverberates in the two previous revelations "God changes not". What you say about Jesus bringing the jews back to the religion of Moses am afraid is not remotely true, Jesus was a jew He used the same scripture as any other jew, He was not here to bring back or take back the messages to some phantom religious practice He was here to fulfill what was already written about Him. Thats is the basis of the muslims apologists argument the world over the jews corrupted their scriptures and the christians corrupted the messages of Jesus, two revelations consecutively corrupted, it was thought for a great while by muslim apologists that they simultaenously corrupted their scriptures to spite the muslims, until the discovery at Qumrah. The onus on proof of corruption of the jewish scripture to the point that they had a different set of criteria by the time Jesus arrived is solely on you (I would love to see some evidence of this), no historian or scholar worth his salt has this view after the discovery of the scrolls at Qumrah. Focus on the question I asked, focus on the arabic word Muhaimin what it means, and what your suggestion that an omniscient God would be so incompetent as to allow both of His revelations to get corrupted. What exactly were the rites of faith of the jews that Mohammed had chosen new rites of faith for the muslim? Let me tell me you what the bible says about the people behind the creation of islam, it says the children of the bond woman will be a stumbling block to the children of the promise, it is a very long problem stretches all the way back to Ishmael and Isaac, the children of the bond woman want the heritage of the promise just like Esau wanted his stolen birth right, they want it so badly they have imitated a religion to combat the children of the promise. The bible preaches that the devil is an imitator bear that in mind.
Thats just it the EVIDENCE FROM ISLAM specifically say that Mohammed was not around to forsee the collation of the koran, the manner in which Mohammed obtained his revelations are dubious to begin with a fabrication at best and demonic at worst, no previous prophet obtained revelation by making camel sounds, hearing bells, and making bee buzzing sounds (and yes I do have the hadiths to back this up). Just how do we test what is from God?, previous revelations says God is unchanging along comes islam with this brand new law of abrogation that occurred several times over a 22 year period, the rational man must ask himself would an Omniscient and Eternal God abrogate anything He had said within a 22 year period while in the previous 2 revelations there isn't one incidence of abrogation? have you you honestly asked yourself this? And I can show you hadiths that say so so and so verse was revealed but was ABROGATED by so so and so verse.
You are relieved because it shows you I don't know much about the quran??? I am well aware that verse is alledgedly from allah, I put allah/mohammed/first person because I wanted the reader to see it from a logical stand point because if you read the koran it is interlaced with such language contradictions where mohammed/allah is supposed to recite or say in first person, third person, singular, plural example: sura 7:3 “Follow the Revelation given to you from your Lord and follow not as protectors other than Him [third person]. Little do you remember My [first person, singular] warning. How many towns have We [plural] destroyed as a raid by night? Our punishment took them suddenly while they slept for their afternoon rest. Our terror came to them; Our punishment overtook them. No cry did they utter but: ‘We were wrong-doers.’” Would you care to show us the prophecies in the KORAN how it relates to all mankind as opposed to the previous revelations let us discuss it.
Are you one of those that are prepared to defend the scientific miracle of flies carrying an antidote on one wing and a poison on the other and dipping them in your soup will cure the disease?
. See my above post about the children of the bond woman, your hadiths say the last day won't come until jews are killed and trees say oh servant of allah there is a jew behind me come and kill him, where is the line drawn in islam between politics and religion?
Would you care to elaborate how the ways of Abraham, Moses differs from the current jews?
And I have heard numerous times from muslim apologists all messengers come with books did Abraham have a book? how about Adam?
By all means show us the contradictions chances are it has been dealt with numerous times over. . Interesting you mention "should not" because we both know in several islamic countries women are to be flogged if they are not wearing the hijab, I assume you must be in the west to have such a liberal islamic viewpoint?
I do not misunderstand the purpose of legalism, there is a fine line between legalism and obsessive compulsive disorders, which is what judaism had become to the jews before Jesus's arrival a huge weight around your neck, the best analogy I can give you is food, you eat the food it gives you sustenance to keep going, you carry the food long enough it accumulates to the point that it becomes a heavy load, that is what christianity is about spirituality eating and living by the eaten food, the word of God, not doing acts in odd numbers. I have looked at the messenger and I am still amazed people would blindly follow an individual whose whole lifestyle is dubious purely on humanistic levels alone, someone who sanctions rape, looting, slavery, and taboo sexual conduct even for his own era alledgedly blessed by his god cannot possibly be following the same God he contradicts in the two previous revelations.
Let us use some logic into this, someone says to you "recite" you say "what shall I recite?", the being then suddenly attacks you for no reason, he didn't even give you a scroll to recite from ( and we know you are very good at reciting we have 116 chapters of your recitations) yet the being attacks you for giving him the only answer you can "what shall I recite?", is this kind of being from God, would God suddenly just manhandle you for no reason like this? The alternative scenario "read" "I cannot read", so an all knowing and omniscient God would suddenly ask a man who doesn't know how to read to read? and then physically manhandle him for not being able to read? You have not even bothered to address the serious allegation of lying in the conflicting accounts in bukhari, tabari and muslim, these are the same people that wrote your koran.
First off a few posts above you say there is no evidence of corruption, now you say the jews didn't preserve their true testament from God, isn't this corruption? It is obvious like many muslims you are unaware that the only reason Jesus was a threat to judaism was because He claimed to be one with the Father, which they saw as blasphemy which strangely enough is what islam believes too, so why purport to believe in someone that contradicts your sole message?.
My main point was not answered you said the jews were profiting from changing their scriptures, the sura says "take not a mean price for my scriptures" this implies buying and selling, money exchange, I asked you how were the jews profiting by changing their scriptures that is what you said they were doing, are you going to claim Mohammed had no access to jewish scriptures? why is this sura there what does it mean by not taking a mean price in exchange for my scriptures, think about it logically, where did Mohammed get all his biblical stories from? did he pay for it? why did he ask Zaid to study the book of the people of the book? Please elaborate how the jews were profiting from denying their scriptures.
So the misconception of the pagan arabs, the early muslims and indeed most of the world in this day and age felt it was taboo to marry your son's wife, but Mohammed was the one to gain sexually from this and justified it Mohammed was also to gain by taking 5% of booty regardless of wether it was the sacred month of rahab Explain how this is leniency, to whom? what kind of a messenger from God is this that his god takes every occasion to bless him with sexual exploits?
If you want to fly in the face of the majortiy of islam to assuage your conscience over it's internal contradictions that is up to you, your view in not believing parts of your hadith will put you at odds with the majority of islam, giving me a link that supports your minority view doesn't help you the majority of islam believes in the parts you chose to omit.
I read what you wrote, how you gave the pros and cons but in reality you have already made up your mind, I have noticed it through most of your arguments you start off with the premise of a rational stand point, how we should believe a messenger's message is the truth if his followers have written it down in his presence and he has checked it and the chain of narration is authenticated, nice sound bite, but your koran fails in this you are going on the premise that your koran has passed your test when it has in fact failed it, in other words you are ready to bite the hands that feeds you to get one up on the opposition, typical tactic of muslim apologists like Ahmed Deedat and others that hold up the gospel of barnabas.
But you are prepared to dismiss Al Tabari and Bukhari hadiths as fabrication even though they are closer to the conception of islam and respected scholars than you. I didn't make them up I obtained them from imams from those countries, ofcourse you can always claim they don't understand or they are reading the hadiths wrong. The Shafi´ites, Hanbalites and Malikites say: The verdict for the female apostate is the same as for the male. She must be called on to return to Islam for three days, prior to her death, for an evil-doer may have confused her understanding; thus the possibility exists for her being released from her confusion. Offering the apostate a time limit for repentance has been approved. According to a tradition related by Daruqutni, quoting from Djabir b. Abdillah, the Prophet offered Islam to a woman named Ummu Rumman who had previously apostatised. Furthermore, the Prophet said, "It is good if she repents. If she does not, she is to be killed, since by apostasy she should be treated like a woman who has fought against Muslims, being taken captive in a holy war (jihad); thus it is lawful to kill her with the sword. Moreover, her guilt is far more abominable than women who are taken captive in a holy war, since she has become a Muslim." The Prophet -- the blessing and peace of Allah be upon him -- said, "He who changes his religion must be killed"; this holds true both for men and women. The apostasy of a man calls for putting him to death. It is unanimously agreed upon that apostasy is a horrible crime deserving a horrible punishment. The apostasy of a woman is no less horrible. Therefore, it too deserves a corresponding punishment: death I also suggest you read "The punishment for apostasy in islam" written by a muslim 'Abdurrahmani'l-Djaziri’ that can be read for free at the following link: http://www.light-of-life.com/eng/ilaw/ |
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