Christian/Muslim Threadsa must readThis ofcourse implies paper and ink were readily available 2,000 years ago to the common man; I hope you have heard of the Muratorian fragments that date the completion of the whole new testament by (AD 70 - AD 170). Coincidentally your hadiths claim Mohammed was never around to forsee the compilation of the koran into a book even Zaid was worried when Uthmann asked him to compile the koran into a book and he claimed how could he do something the prophet didn't do. If you want to claim religious superiority over maintenance of your holy text thats a moot point, because your koran was never written with the guidance of the prophet, when the third caliph came to make some more changes Mohammed was not there, when a further 7 amendments were made by a succeeding caliph Mohammed was not there, all this changes and compilation of the koran were made without a prophetic advice. See my post above, your koran funny enough never elaborates on the why Jesus was born of a virgin the koran doesn't expand on a great many things, the reason it gives for Jesus miraculous birth is apparently allah just decided it, do you honestly think God acts on a whim like that, jews and christians believe God does things for valid reasons that are known to his creation soon enough. I suggest you read the reading ways of the koran published by arabic scholars of Kuwaiti university 1982 to get just how your koran was transmitted to the present day. You have just contradicted the point you have been trying to hammer in your first two posts, which was the story closest to the events in your opinion that was written down in the presence of the prophets is the one you should go for, now you change your tune when it applies to apocryphal jewish and christian fables incorporated almost verbatim into your koran? Would you care to elaborate for us how the koran is a miracle (the number 19 is not associated with God in the jewish or christian scriptures by the way), I wonder if you have heard of Al Tabari (part of the sunnah) the respected muslim historian his history of islam precedes any hadith it was translated during 1984-1997 by New york university press, I can assure you no sane individual after reading it will accept islam as coming from God. This is what it says about creation: Tabari I:188 “Jews came to the Prophet and asked him about the creation of the heavens and the earth. He said, ‘Allah created the earth on Sunday and Monday. He created the mountains and the uses they possess on Tuesday. On Wednesday He created trees, water, cities and the cultivated and barren land. On Thursday, He created heaven. On Friday, He created stars, the sun, moon, and angels, until three hours remained. In the first of these three hours, He created the terms, who would live and who would die. In the second, He cast harm upon everything that is useful for mankind. And in the third, Adam, and had him dwell in Paradise.’” Tabari I:189 “The Messenger took me by the hand and said, ‘Allah created soil on Saturday. Upon it, He created the mountains on Sunday. He created the trees on Wednesday, scattered animals on Thursday, and made Adam as the last of His creatures after the afternoon prayer on Friday.’” Now before you scream this is corruption and you have never heard of it and it isn't in the koran I would like you to bear in mind the things that are omitted in the koran as to the beginnings of this earth, remember this was written before any of the hadiths were collected, and the author proclaims their authenticity "come directly from Mohammed" You believe God protected His word by allowing pagan arabs only to have the true message of His word? this same pagan arabs that worshipped the stars, moon and stones suddenly had the true religon from God just hidden and waiting to be revealed by Mohammed, there is a fundamental logical fallacy here where do we distinguish between what is the true religion of God and blatant paganism being practiced by the pagan sabaens?. If the pagan sabeans practiced salat, hajj poilgrimages and circumnavigating the ka'ba how come Jesus didn't do it or Moses or Abraham? if this is the religion that follows the previous religions of God why is it the pagans only are practicing this ritual? You mention God protects His word, interesting the koran says "To you (Muhammad) We revealed the book in truth, attesting to (the truth of) that which IS between his (its) hands from the scripture (the Torah and Gospel), and guarding it (wa muhaiminan `alaihi)."sura 5:48 According to the Arabic Lexicon muhaimin comes from the root verb haymana, and is related to such words as yuhayminu and hayamanah. These terms can mean ‘to protect, to witness, to keep trust, to back up and to support’ as well as Ameen, control, watch, preserve. Hans Wehr's Arabic dictionary states that muhaimin means protector or watcher. The question you should ask yourself is why an all knowing Omniscient God would allow his two previouis revelations to get corrupted simultaenously (ignore the scrolls found in the caves of Qumran for a second). Brilliant point, let us apply it to the koran how do we know that what we are reading is from God, first off would God have such contradictory sentences pervading His whole scripture promising eternal doom, and eternal torment for his creatures and in the next line for verily allah is merciful? Would an all knowing an omniscient God produce sura 2:226 and sura 9:5, surely an all knowing and omniscient God would not abrogate/change/alter his revelations repeatedly over a 22 year period, the old testament spanned 2000+ years there is no abrogation in it, the new testament spanned 70-120 years there is no abrogation in it, yet a 22 year span of alledged revelation has numerous; some schools of islamic jurispundence say 150+ abrogations something is obviously wrong here can this be the same God?. If you want to argue that I am taking it out of context of the historical period it relates to then how can this be the final REVELATION FOR ALL MANKIND if it only refers to local events in the arabian peninsula. A simple ounce of doubt example: James 5:12 Above all, my brothers, do not swear - not by heaven or by earth or by anything else. Let your "Yes" be yes, and your "No," no, or you will be condemned. "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. "But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes‘ or ‘No, no‘; and anything beyond these is of evil. (Mt 5:33-37) "I swear by the moon, And the night when it departs, And the daybreak when it shines; Surely it (hell) is one of the gravest (misfortunes)" (Koran 74:32) The previous revelations says we should not swear now along comes islam and allah/mohammed/first person decides it is ok to swear by of all things the moon, night and sun?. Simple logic tells me if the two previous revelations are progressive and along comes a third so called revelation that contradicts both the first and second revelation the third reelation is in error. The concept of the trinity was not formed in the council of Nicae, what amazes me is this really is a moot point to the muslim, even if you were to take away the trinity you still have the problem of the Son of God. The way you say that 99% it makes it look like a number of enormous proportions just who were the christians in the middle east? how many were Nestorians? how many were Chloridians (believe Mary is part of the trinity), if these false sect of christianity pervaded the middle east and along comes sura 9:5 which many scholars interpreted as mushrikeen anyone other than islam for fear of their lives wouldn't you expect them to convert especially if they had to pay tax. I suggest you make a serious effort to study the sunnah and the koran in chronological order a Lebanese printing firm had plans on producing the koran in chronological order I do not know if they have started production yet, if you read it in chronological order you would realise it came from the mind of a man and nothing more, as I asked earlier would you like to stress the miracle of the koran please elaborate on the alledged prophecies of the KORAN, if it's existence is it's sole miracle, that can go for just about any ancient literature written that stood the test of time, the epic of gilgamesh, for starters. In what way are islam and judaism close, why does fundamentalist islam hate judaism so much? have you thought for one second if you are serving the same God or if God is on your side, why have all the islamic countries attacking Israel over the years have not driven Israel into the sea yet? Does God favour one side over the other? or are both sides serving two different gods? What does circumnavigating the ka'ba, salat and the hajj pilgrimage have to do with Judaism? If you want to claim they are monotheism, well that goes for zoroastrains too are you close to zoroastrians, or didn't Mohammed just call them fire worshippers? Another brilliant point, show me another scripture that chronicles the beginning of man right through to judgement day, is there any other scripture with such prophecies that are being fulfilled in our very eyes? can you say the same about your koran, does it have any chronology of any kind? wouldn't you expect an omniscient God outside of time to reveal a message to hs creation that tells them what is going to happen as a testament that the message came from Him, how can the authors of 66 scriptural books spanning over 2,000 years not contradict each other yet the author/s of a book spanning 22 years are full of abrogations which one in all honesty would you say came from God?
You believe the quran is revelation and that it is the truth because? Why would proselytes to an alledged message for all mankind only convert via chanting the shahadah in arabic? and why do they most of the time take on an arabic name and their females forced into wearing the hijab which some wear to the point that it makes them almost deaf, dumb and blind?, does this look more like arab culturalisation than an intercession between God and his creation? why must the message for all mankind only to be understood unless you go to the original arabic a complicated and hard to understand language second only to chinese Christianity was about removing legalism from communication with God now islam is fighting tooth and nail to get legalism into religion. Scroll up, did Mohammed see the final copy kept by Uthmann while he burnt the other 99 codexs to see if it had zero deviance? so God needs to commune His message in eloquence? doesn't your koran say that it is written in simple arabic so that even a child could understand? so you believe the koran is from God because of the eloquence and the internal miracles? I would love to hear what exactly these miracles are, I hope you are also aware that Mohammed told Zaid (the final collector of the koran) to study the book of the jews, and poems from famous arabs were interlaced into the text, is this the eloquence you mean? So by your logic the works of Shakespeare are from God because it has eloquence and mathematically equidistant text?
sura 96 1 “Read in the name of your Lord who created man out of clots of congealed blood. Read, for your Lord is the most generous. He who taught the use of the pen that man might be taught that which he did not know.” This is acknowledged by islamic scholars as the very first sura revealed to Mohammed, what you have to ask yourself is why would an omniscient God would ask an illterate man to read? and what on earth does the words mean, I have tried for quite a while to fanthom out some meaning to the very first sura of islam, for your lord is the most generous and taught the use of the pen so men would be taught that which he did not know? if you were to read al tabari and sahih muslim and bukhari this little snippet on the conception would make a lot more sense. Bukhari:V1B1N3-V6B60N478 “The commencement of divine inspiration to Allah’s Messenger was in the form of dreams that came true like a bright light. The Prophet loved the seclusion of a cave in Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, ‘I do not know how to read.’ The Prophet added, ‘Then the angel caught me forcefully and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He released me and asked me to read. I replied, “I do not know how to read.” Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me till I could not bear it any more. He asked me to read but I replied, “I do not know how to read or what shall I read?” Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, “Read in the name of your Lord who has created man from a clot. Read! Your Lord is the most generous.” Then the Apostle returned from that experience; the muscles between his neck and shoulders were trembling, and his heart beating severely. He went to Khadija and cried, ‘Cover me! Cover me!’ She did until his fear subsided. He said, ‘What’s wrong with me? I am afraid that something bad has happened to me.’ Khadija replied, ‘Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you….’” Tabari VI:67 “Aisha reported: ‘Solitude became dear to Muhammad and he used to seclude himself in the cave of Hira where he would engage in the Tahannuth [pagan religious rites performed in Ramadhan that included fasting] worship for a number of nights before returning to Khadija and getting provisions for a like period, till truth came upon him while he was in a cave. The first form of revelation was a true vision in sleep. He did not see any vision but it came like the break of dawn.’” “‘Muhammad, you are the Messenger.’” “The Prophet said, ‘I had been standing, but fell to my knees; and crawled away, my shoulders trembling. I went to Khadija and said, ‘Wrap me up! When the terror had left me, he came to me and said, ‘Muhammad, you are the Messenger of Allah.’ Muhammad said, ‘I had been thinking of hurling myself down from a mountain crag, but he appeared to me as I was thinking about this and said, ‘I am Gabriel and you are the Messenger.’ Then he said, Recite!’ I said, ‘What shall I recite?’ He took me and pressed me three times. ‘I fear for my life.’ She said, ‘Rejoice, for Allah will never put you to shame.” Muslim C74B1N301 “‘The truth came unexpectedly and said: “Recite,” to which he replied: “I am not lettered.” The Apostle said, “He took hold of me, and pressed me, till I was hard pressed. He let me off and said: ‘Recite.’ I said: ‘I am not lettered.’” Notice how in Bukhari the angel apparently told him to read, but in muslim and tabari it said recite, was someone trying to remove away the accusation of why an omniscient God would ask an illiterate man to read? or why would someone say they are unable to recite? does it make any sense for an angel of God to say recite wihtout telling you what to recite of course the logical question you would ask it is "what shall I recite?" you don't expect this angel of God to suddenly start manhandling you when it gave you no scroll to recite from or told you what to say now do you? is that why in Bukhari and the koran it says read?
where do you get the evidence that the jews were profiting from their way of life? you mean since they no longer followed the true religion in your opinion they were profiting from their way of life? could not the alternative scenario for sura 2:41 be that the jews were selling scriptures to Mohammed while Mohammed wanted it for free so he could incorporate it into his new religion? hence the sura was revealed, it is very coincidental suras were revealed regarding events to profit Mohammed if Mohammed wanted to take Zaid's wife viola a sura would be revealed to justify it, if mohammed wanted booty on the sacred month of rahab viola a sura would be revealed to justify it... There is a term for this type of an attitude, "cut your nose to spite your face". I hope you realise the majority of imans in the sunni school of jurispundence believe in the hadiths, a great deal of islam would call you an apostate for picking and choosing which part of islam you want to believe in, and I hope you also realise the people who wrote the hadiths are the same people who wrote the koran, so if they incorporated lies into the hadiths how about the koran?
That is not even the issue the issue is the destination of your eternal soul it really doesn't matter if scripture is memorised for it's protection ( forget that Zaid couldn't find certain verses when he started his collection if it was all memorised surely he would have to go to one person and maybe a second for confirmation rather than look for verses in leaves, animal skin and barks of wood (does this look like a mass memorisation technique to you) thats a moot point, what if the scripture is just plain wrong and not from God, what then? And from your statement you have already come to the conclusion that you hold the truth isn't that circular logic, you are prepared to argue with someone to read a book that contains justification for the gospel of barnabas when it contradicts your holy books but since it denies the diety of Jesus it must be true, if you are prepared to justify a book that contradicts your holy book but use it as defence simply because it contradicts a rival scripture then it reeks of desperation to prove the other side wrong no matter what. Not many of the muslims I have spoken to have been able to defend islam at the crux of it they have always said I will ask an iman or someone who is more knowledgeable, any blasphemy against the prophet is punishable by death, apostasy is punishable by death after a 3 day waiting grace, these are practiced by many an islamic country your liberal words and attitude am afraid is not the reality of islam in the majority of the world. |
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