Peace humble guest,
Okay, I'm gonna try to keep my answers short because there's three of us and one of you.
There’s no question that the OT foretells the coming of Jesus the Messiah. Apart from that, all the passages you’ve shown regarding the Trinitarian conception of Jesus have solid alternative explanations by the Jews, especially when they claim that the OT in the Bible was translated with a bias to promote the Christian interpretations.
The Jews are the ones that expect Elijah to come back again!
Jewish thought is not reliable.
I often check Bible readings with readings from the Jewish Tanakh to ensure it is not biased.
Not at all friend. I have complete faith in God. That’s the first step. The second step is wanting to live by God’s word. Hundreds of religions CLAIM they hold God’s word, but you have to use your intellect to test these claims. Everyone wants to be a Prophet, but you have to test their signs, that’s why God always sends His Messengers with signs. Anyone who spends a lifetime following a book when they aren’t sure it’s from God are being dangerously negligent with their lives.
So humble, what makes you 100% sure that the Quran is the Word of Allah rather than a deceptive work of Satan or a well made human fabrication??
The good mind has to first ask himself, where are these stories found? They are found in the Qur’an. Ask yourself what raises the Qur’an above all other Scriptures? The Qur’an is itself a sign from God, that’s why we know that it contains only Truth. That’s why its claims supercede those of lesser texts of questionable origin, and when it was revealed has no bearing on what it contains. The word of God is eternal and Truth, it will describe the origins of the Universe even if written billions of years later.
You are working backwards form the Quran, that is not the correct approach. Christians don't even do that with the Gospels!
I cann your way "backwards logic"
You should verify or disprove the Quran based on what comes before it, and use logic to fugure if what the Quran contains is in fact autentic and not fabricated.
I think you’re speaking in extremes now. Nobody is saying that someone took the Bible and completely rewrote it such that everything in it is false. A LOT of Jesus’ teachings remain, many prophecies remain in tact, people didn’t re-author the text and distort it this grossly. However, there is little doubt that extraneous beliefs crept into it after Jesus’ (pbuh) ascension because it was such a mysterious event. People began explaining by conjecture since Jesus was no longer there to explain it. Instead of living strictly by the teachings of Jesus while he was on earth for 30 some years, people took the events of his last few days and remodeled the religion.
That is quite some conjecturing!
You assume this, as I would assume the Quran contains apocrypal fables...but at least I have true historical evidence to support my belief.
I have apocryphal books to support my theory, wile you have nothing but your imagination.
Believer, do you know how large and for how long the Unitarian Christian community lasted in the middle East? They were practically equal if not larger than the Trinitarian community, and they continued to preach the True Message of Jesus and his life. It shouldn’t surprise you at all that they would have recorded a similar story as that revealed in the Qur’an. These stories were labeled as “mythical” to the masses when the Church began collecting and withholding the texts from the public, that’s what “apocryphal” means, it means “hidden from the people”
Again, this is your conjectuibng, brough ton by an urge to justify your already questionable faith.
Th Apostles and the early Church believed that Jesus was the Lord.
They always called Him "Lord" and worshipped Him.
They believed the Spirit was from God, only modern Jewish thought is not the same as it was back in the day.
Some Essenes followe John the Baptist as the Messiah, they were a loopy bunch.
Actually I just saw a program about apocryphal writings last night on the History Channel, humble, about apocryphal stories. The baby Jesus story and other storied , some foun in the Quran, were very common among the early Christians. The compilers of the Bible had a very difficult time sorting through the very widely accepted books and the100's of other books. They picked the 27 books that we have today, which was a great success! They could have accepted all of the most widely accepted books into the Bible, like the Life of Adam and Eve, which contained the story about Satan refusing to bow to Adam.
In truth, the myths weren't hidden from the mases, they were the most common beliefs of the masses!!!
Dictionary.com says apocryphal means:
1 Of questionable authorship or authenticity.
2 Erroneous; fictitious: “Wildly apocryphal rumors about starvation in Petrograd... raced through Russia's trenches” (W. Bruce Lincoln)
What haven’t I applied to my beliefs? I’m telling you that before we even examine what’s INSIDE our books, we need to study WHERE they came from. At least we know beyond a doubt that the Qur’an we have today is the one that the Prophet Muhammad spoke, memorized and oversaw transcribed. We know that the way the Prophet Muhammad lived his life is the way we currently live our lives. This is not something any Christian can say. People don’t know how Jesus prayed, how he ate, how he supplicated to God. They only recorded this after he had gone, after NOONE could verify whether what was being written was correct. They could NEVER be sure what they wrote was what Jesus would have approved. In addition, Jesus’ teachings ended obviously after the events of the crucifixion whereas the Bible’s teachings REVOLVE around this event which Jesus did not explain nor had the opportunity to correct deviant beliefs thereon.
The only deviant beliefs are about Jesus were from books like Pseudo -Mattew and Arabic Infancy Gospels.
No way to verify Jesus turned clay figures into birds!!!
When Jesus was on His ministry, the people of Nazareth were very surprised how wise Jesus was beacuse He was NOT this magical little boy that worked astonishing miracles, or the people would have not been impressed with Jesus as a man.
Did you know that at the time of Nicaea, roughly 50% of the Christian world was Unitarian? Half of the Christians believed in the Divine Unity and the Prophethood of Jesus the Messiah.
How could people have come up with that figure??? There's no way of telling!
Unitarians were indeeds the heretics because the Apostles and early Christians and Jewish Christiasn beliedv that Jesus was the Lord.
The Gospels clearly reveal that Jesus was divine.
Jesus's very birth is proof that He is divine.
Arius was defined as heretical AFTER the hegemony of the Trinitarian church re-evaluated all the claims of the debate of Nicaea. During the time, Christians were honestly debating what they did not clearly understand about Jesus’ mysterious nature and virgin birth.
By the Spirit of God all was beutifully worked out!
This is a myth. The Unitarian Christians of the middle east didn’t even NEED to be pressured. Look at the history, they converted IMMEDIATELY after hearing of Islam. It was almost instantaneous because they RECOGNIZED what they had always known. That God is One and Jesus is His Messiah and beloved Messenger. At the time of Islam, all of Northern Africa, Syria, Jordan, Iraq were practically 100% Christian. Years later, only small patches like the Armenians in the North remained because all the Unitarian Christians recognized the message. The Armenians were Trinitarian since Nicaea which is why they were not as influenced.
Well goodness! The Quran had all of there heretical myths!
And they totally misunderstood and corrupted their faith!
Those people were not true Christians.
Even alot of what the Quran says about Chrisyaismn reflects some of the different heretical Christians.
The Armenians were REAL Christians.
Christainity and Judaism is not compatable with Islam.
Interesting how people can be Jews and Christians at the exact same time...Trinitarian and all!!!
Can't do that with Islam, you have the outsider religion!!
Actually the Unitarians had been in equal numbers to the Trinitarians SINCE 33 AD. Their numbers began to dwindle only as they were massacred by the Trinitarian authorities over the centuries. Didn’t you always wonder why the Christians were fighting so brutally during the first half of the millennium? Did you think it was just “True Christians” vs. the “heretics”? Heretics are usually fringe groups, not HALF of the entire population of Christianity
What reliable source said that at 33 AD that was so??
Heresy was the greatest threat to Christianity, and hey the greater half were those that believed in the Trinity...are they necessarily the heresy?
The Trinity is not invented, but was an integral part of the Gospels.
The Unitarian heresy would have kept the "original" Gospel, so why haven't such a manuscript been found?
See how flaky this argument gets???
And remember that the entire Quran was memorized, a parallel system of complete memorization and transcription around the Muslim world ensured that no collusion could have taken place to corrupt the message.
So, why not the Gospel being memorized and written down????
A Gospel book is alot shorter than the Quran, and we have 4 of them!
You have to real evidence to even say the Gospels are corrupt, you assume this becauise the Gospels don't match the Quran. Again, backwards circular logic.
Look at my signature as well as this hadith:
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There is none whose deeds alone would entitle him to get into Paradise. It was said to him: And, Allah's Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that my Lord wraps me in Mercy.
It is dangerously incorrect to believe that one’s deeds alone will get you to Heaven, this is what Apologetics claim to distort the issue of salvation of Islam.
One’s good deeds testify FOR him on the day of Judgement, but belief is by far more important than a lifetime of good deeds. Look to the hadith for this yourself. How many stories are there of people who lived PURELY sinful lives, but before they died they repented sincerely, and are reported to have gone to Heaven. Deeds come into play when one has believed. You have stories of believers who reportedly went to Heaven for having Believed and done a single good deed in their life.
Jews also repent directly to God.
The Quran says:
[23.102] Then as for him whose good deeds are preponderant, these are the successful.
[23.103] And as for him whose good deeds are light, these are they who shall have lost their souls, abiding in hell
The Denkard, an important compilation of Zoroastrian beliefs, says:
Denkard, Book Five 9:2
Of what manner now are Heaven and Hell? Heaven begin. with the exalted Satarpaya, and Hell is below the surface of the earth. Heaven is luminous, fragrant, bliss-giving, and possessed of all sorts of brilliancy and charm. Hell is dark, full of wretchedness, stinking, lusterless, and given to every misery. In these (Heaven and Hell) there are many sort, of double bliss and double misery respectively. (Such bliss and misery) exist not on the earth that hes between. In the abodes of Satarpaya and Hamistagan are (the souls) both (of) the departed and the dead* having in them an admixture (of merits and sins.) Of them he that has the preponderance of righteousness has the passage to Heaven (i.e. to Satarpaya), while he whose sins are in excess is on the pathway to Hell; and he whose sins and meritorious deeds are in equal proportion has his abode in Hamistagan. What sorts of abodes are there in these three places of different grades? Of these sorts -the first full of bliss and charm, the second devoid of happiness and full of misery, and the third having a combination of the (awards of) righteous purity and sin.
The Vendidad, the Persian's Torah, teaches this:
Vendidad 3:42.
'In the same way the Religion of Mazda, O Spitama Zarathushtra! cleanses the faithful from every evil thought, word, and deed, as a swift-rushing mighty wind cleanses the plain.
'So let all the deeds he doeth be henceforth good, O Zarathushtra! a full atonement for his sin is effected by means of the Religion of Mazda.'
Neither were Adam or Eve. Remember that God can create whatever He wills, there is no need to use conjecture to invent explanations.
I am a firm Evolutionist, so this argument carries no weight with me.
Jesus (pbuh) had to consistently remind people not to worship him. As you yourself know, many people did not know how to interpret the virgin birth and tried to worship Jesus but Jesus himself corrected this association.
No way! Many instances was Jesus worshipped in the Gospels, and He did not once stop it!! Even Daniel sees the Son of Man being worshipped by the nations!!
No that’s obviously not true, but what I do know is that the Qur’an has infinitely more evidence of its authenticity than does any other Scripture.
Only it contains fabricated myths!!!!!
Hey, there is a lack of proof that Jesus made clay figure and turned then into birds!!!
Do you realize how flaky such stories are??
Take your time answering, friend, you're busy little bee with us three.