Believer wrote:As to Hebrews 1:8 and all the other quotes contained in Hebrews 1 from the OT, have you read the OT verses in there full context? If your answer is no, then you have accepted an interpretation of Hebrews 1 based on the traditions of men and not by the use of every word that proceeds from the mouth of God.
You never answered my questions or directly handled my points. This further fortifies my position
Your site says nothing of the different places in scripture where the Son is personified, or where it's stated Jesus "emptied" Himself, as if He were a preexistent heavenly King, and took the likeness of a man. The first chapter of Hebrews shows that the Son is very much a person, not some ideal.
Really? Then you did not check out the whole site. Here is a link that addresses all of the Trinitarian "proofs".
http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/module ... le&sid=109
As to your points, I am not going to take the time to post all the OT Scriptures quoted in Hebrews 1 since many of them can be found in this thread, the thread you tried to take off topic:
Messianic Prophesies Vs. the Trinity
Saul, David, Solomon and 45 other men were kings over Judah/Israel. So if I use your logic all those kings are also God. Scripture does not allude to the deity of Jesus Christ unless you interpret "one God, the Father", and "only true God" as lies perpetrated by Jesus and Paul to deceive the gullible.
Check that thread of mine you locked away somewhere. God declares that He alone is the "King". The Son is also called the "King".
You are simply begging the question since God commanded Samuel to anoint both Saul and David King over Israel.
My Unitarian belief is supported by the entire word of God, which you cannot say for the Trinity. Also since you have not addressed the fact the Son is not omniscient, which is an attribute of God you are demonstrating the weakness of your position.
Then you shouldn't avoid answering questions and points I bring up.
I have not avoided answering your questions or points.
That verse you alluded to youshould research more. So why didn't Jesus condemn Thomas's proclamation of Him as Lord and God? It looks like a prophecy to me, because "Lord and God" is used a few times in the Pslams. Jesus said He had to fulfill what was in Psalms.
You must take me for a complete fool. The Psalms never refer to the Messiah as God. In the Psalms "LORD", "Lord God", and "Lord and God" refer to Yehovah. You need to study Scripture instead of Catholicism.
Now, when are you going to comment on this: But What About John 1:1?
I've been commenting on it. You need to read people's threads.
Most of what is found on the link you refuse to comment on I have shared on this and other threads. The link goes into more detail that I choose not to plagarize. Just how long will it take you to read 13 pages? Or is it you have read it and cannot refute the scholarship found in the Biblical Unitarian site?
We trust that by now the reader knows that Jesus did not pre-exist his birth and that he was not with God in Genesis 1:1.
No, because the Bible shows that the preexistent Son was an actual person. Maybe you can provide how the Son isn't a preexistent being after reading these verses:
John 3:12-13;31
If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?
No one has gone up to heaven except the one who has come down from heaven, the Son of Man.
The one who comes from above is above all. The one who is of the earth is earthly and speaks of earthly things. But the one who comes from heaven (is above all).
John 5:21
For just as the Father raises the dead and gives life, so also does the Son give life to whomever he wishes.
Hebrews 1:1-3
In times past, God spoke in partial and various ways to our ancestors through the prophets;
in these last days, he spoke to us through a son, whom he made heir of all things and through whom he created the universe,
who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Clearly Jesus was a preexistent person to have came down from Heaven and to have knowledge of Heavenly things. There are more examples, Aineo. Jesus is a person and speaks of His preeexistent self many times. The Transfiguration in fact shows Jesus transfiguring into his former prexistent glory.
Clearly you refuse to understand how John and 1st century Jews and Greeks understood "logos". As the site points out "logos" was more than a word, it was a philosophical concept that encapsulates all that a person is as expressed by their words that originate as thoughts.
In Hebrews, "he" is definitely not an it. This is taking about the prexistent Jesus. Some things you'be got to accept.
Phillipians 2:6 Jesus "emptied" Himself of his preexistent glory and took the likeness of a man. His adopted a human nature, but He already had a nature. What are you going to say now? You and your site pick a few verses here and there, and from it derive an entire doctrine. You can't pull water from rocks. John 1:1 only says that Jesus is the Word, implying all that Jesus said was the exact Word of God because He was God. Every word that comes from my mouth is the word of Believer because that's what I am.
I dont believe Biblical Unitarian ever hints at Jesus being an it. What it does address is how Greek asigns gender to nouns and that the gender of all pronouns agree with the noun. However, in English this is not the case. Tables are not he or she, tables are its since tables are inanimate. I will leave it to those read this thread to read the site I linked to as you are trying to obfusate reality.
As to Philippians 2:6, Paul did not write that Jesus emptied Himself of His preexistant glory and took on the likeness of a man. Jesus was a man born of Mary and to deny this is to appeal to fairy tales. Jesus emptied Himself of His human ego and self-determination and took on the form of a servant. Jesus was born a free man. His parents did not sell Him to anyone and He did not sell Himself, He freely gave of Himself to be God's servant.
Acts 2:23
This man, delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him.
This verse just doesn't say anything about the preexistent Son, only that God has a plan and it was completed. You can't sqeeze blood from a turnip.
What this verse tells us is that the Son did not preexist His birth, this verse verifies that Jesus is the predetermined plan for the salvation of mankind.
It's interesting to note that you wanted me to read your site, but when I gave you a site that explains the Trinity you didn't read it and said it was the ramblings of men. I read your site and I say it's the rambings of men, but I wasn't afraid to read it. One thing about myself is that I know what I believe is true and I don't hide or avoid things, what we Christians believe about Jesus is so ingrained in scripture. you'd have to not want to believe that Jesus is a preexistent being and is God. you know, at least the Arians and the other heresies believed Jesus was a preexistent being.
I have read sites dealing with the Trinity for years and supported them. Need I remind you I was raised to believe in the Trinity and actively defended the Trinity until fairly recently when I decided to take God at His word. It was after I changed my position I found Biblical Unitarians, which has helped me clarify what I had already found from God's word. However, what you have shared from that site is ludicrous as you have taken one or two sentences totally out of context, just like you do Scripture to support your herertical beliefs like purgatory, the Marian Doctrines, and etc.
Jesus did not preexist creation as God. Jesus preexisted creation as God's plan for the salvation of mankind. This plan became flesh and dwelled among us.