Abdurrahman wrote:
In the name of Allah most gracious most merciful
The false original sin concept is a fabrication as well .
Lots of contradictions about this concept :
We muslims do not believe in Original Sin. Christians believe, Adam and Eve, the first humans sinned when they ate the forbidden fruit. They were expelled from heaven and sin entered the world.
Kai responds:
My problem here is: why should Allah place Adam and Eve on the Earth after their sin in heaven? I mean, was the universe created because Adam sinned, and Allah needed to make a confinement of some kind; or did the universe exist before Adam? But in that case why would Allah create the universe in the first place.
My second question, would sin ever have entered the world of humanity if Adam and Eve would not have sinned in the first place. If there is no original sin, why does every single human being depart from the right path?
What assurance do we have that there will not be any sin in heaven, according to Islam a human is simply what it is.
If there is no original sin, what do you mean by then, that sin entered the world because of Adam and Eve?
Abdurrahman wrote:
Every child of Adam, you and I, according to Christianity has inherited this sin .Therefore, every male and female is born as sinner and is therefore destined to hell, from birth. This belief in Christianity gave rise to the doctrine of Atonement. According to this doctrine, God sacrificed his "only begotten" son, Jesus to wash away the sins of the world. The only thing people have to do to wash away their hereditary stain is to believe in Jesus as God's son and that he died for them.
Kai responds:
Let me just correct you here, the Bible does not encourage simply faith but conversion and repentance.
Abdurrahman writes:
In islam , every one is responsible for their own doings and nobody can carry the burden of another. God is forgiving and if a person sincerely repents, amends and does what is good and righteous, God forgives. Adam did not ask us before eating the fruit, so how can we be blamed?
Kai responds:
Are you really sure about this thing with carrying another’s burden? Do correct me if I am wrong, but do you not save your whole family from hell by memorizing the whole Quran? Are there not Hadiths indicating that a martyr can bring a range of individuals with him to paradise; in this case were is the justice? Where is the carrying of your own burden?
Secondly, if you had bothered to read by refutal of your first post, which I totally refuted you would have noticed that I responded to the this very argument.
Humanity is not punished for Adam’s sin but the sin they have committed on their own, based on the effect of sin since the fall of Adam (read Romans 5).
Also, where in the Bible does it speak about Adams apple?
Abdurrahman wrote:
Logic says killing an innocent is not justice but billions are believing this wrong concept unfortunately .
Kai replies:
Again could you please post me some passages from the Bible which reveal in the injustice of the atonement.
The death of Christ and his atonement is not to be understood from a human angle or even from any human metaphorical examples, such as a court.
The whole matter of the atonement is divine, it was accomplished by God, and it was agreed upon by both the Father and the Son.
However, why do you bother about debating this matter, where is the justice in the Quran?
Is the rape of innocent women and girls (as encourage by the Koran and Hadith) justice?
Look at some of the following examples from the Hadiths and be chocked:
RAPE OF FEMALE SLAVES
Sura 70:22-30; 23:5-6; 4:24 give full permission for the Muslims to rape their female slaves (the girls taken in war). In Sura 33:50 a special permission is given for Muhammed.
"...who restrain their carnal desires (except with their wives and slave girls, for these are lawful to them..." (Sura 23: 5-6)
"And all married women are forbidden unto you save those captives whom your right hand possess. It is a decree of Allah for you (Sura 4: 24).
According to Tabari vol.39, p.194 the ruler of Alexandria gave a young Christian girl as a gift to Muhammad, her name was Mariyam. Muhammad never married her but used to sleep with her, and she even gave birth to a son who died after 18 months..
According to Sahih Bukhari vol.5#637 Ali had sex with a slave girl whom he saw and found beautiful, and Muhammad seemed to have no objections.
Narrated Buraida: The prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (part of the war booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, "Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)? When we reached the prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, "O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?" I said, "Yes." He said, "Do you hate him for he deserves more than that from the Khumus." (Sahih Bukhari, vol.5, #637)
RAPE OF FEMALE CAPTIVES
According to Sahih Bukhari vol.9#506; Sahih Muslim vol.2#3371 Muhammad’s followers used to come to Muhammad after battles, to seek permission and advise to engage in sexual activity with the girls taken in battle. They doubted for several reasons, however, permission was granted.
At one point Muhammad gave them permission and told them that it is up to Allah who gets created anyway, thus permission was given.
a. The permission from the Koran
"Prophet, We have made lawful to you the wives whom you have granted dowries and the slave girls whom God has given you as booty;..." (Sura 33: 50)
b. Doubt due to fear of less money for selling pregnant slaves
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that while he was sitting with Allah's messenger we said, "Oh Allah's messenger, we got female captives as our booty, and we are interested in their prices, what is your opinion about coitus interruptus?" The prophet said, "Do you really do that? It is better for you not to do it. No soul that which Allah has destined to exist, but will surely come into existence." (Sahih Bukhari, vol.3, # 432) (further reference Bukhari Vol. 3, #718)
c. Fear due to pregnancy
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri that during the battle with Bani Al-Mustaliq they (Muslims) captured some females and intended to have sexual relations with them without impregnating them. So they asked the prophet about coitus interruptus. The prophet said, "It is better that you should not do it, for Allah has written whom He is going to create till the Day of Resurrection". (Sahih Bukhari, vol.9, #506) (further reference Bukhari 5: 459)
d. Lust or ransom?
Abu Sirma said to Abu Said al Khudri: "O Abu Said, did you hear Allah's messenger mentioning about al-azl (coitus interrupts)?" He said, "Yes", and added: "We went out with Allah's messenger on the expedition to the Mustaliq and took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them for we were suffering from the absence of our wives, (but at the same time) we also desired ransom for them. So we decided to have sexual intercourse with them but by observing azl" (withdrawing the male sexual organ before emission of semen to avoid conception). But we said: "We are doing an act whereas Allah's messenger is amongst us; why not ask him?" So we asked Allah's messenger and he said: "It does not matter if you do not do it, for every soul that is to be born up to the Day of Resurrection will be born". (Sahih Muslim vol.2, # 3371)
e. Doubt since their men are polytheists
Abu Said al-Khudri reported that at the Battle of Hunain Allah's messenger sent an army to Autas and encountered the enemy and fought with them. Having overcome them and taken them captives, the Companions of Allah's messenger seemed to refrain from having intercourse with captive women because of their husbands being polytheists. Then Allah, Most High, sent down regarding that: "And women already married, except those whom your right hands possess (Quran - 4:24), (i.e. they were lawful for them when their Idda (menstrual) period came to and end). (Sahih Muslim, vol.2, #3432)
f. Doubt since their husbands watch them being raped
Abu Said al-Khudri said: "The apostle of Allah sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the apostle of Allah were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Quranic verse, "And all married women (are forbidden) unto your save those (captives) whom your right hand possesses". That is to say, they are lawful for them when they complete their waiting period."" [The Quran verse is 4:24]. (Sunan of Abu Dawud, vol.2, #2150)
You are correct, as with the death of Jesus, these girls were molested for others, however, look at the difference: Jesus voluntarily died for your sin Abdurrahman, these girls were non-volutarily raped to satisfy the lust of Muhammad and his earliest followers.
So much for the Islamic concept of justice!
COULD YOU PLEASE EXPLAIN US: IF ISLAM IS SUCH A HOLY RELIGION IN WHICH EVERYONE HAS TO SAVE THEMSELVES, WHY WAS SUCH PRACTICE WAS PERMISSIBLE AND ENCOURAGED AMONG MUHAMMAD AND HIS EARLIEST FOLLOWERS. WOULD SUCH NOT LEAD MUHAMMAD AND ALL HIS MEN STRAIGHT TO HELL? OR COULD IT BE THAT ISLAM IN ITSELF IS A DISTORTION OF RELIGION WHICH IS GROUNDED IN THE EXACT ORIGINAL SIN YOU ARE DENYING.
Abdurrahman wrote:
Jesus (pbuh) said :
"If you would enter life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:17).
It was Paul who brought the concept of the Original Sin into Christianity. He says:
Romans 5:12
[12] "Therefore, as sin came into the world through ONE man.."
1 Corinthians 15:21-22
[21] "For as by a man came death (sin), by a man also has come the resurrection of the dead.
[22] For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive."
Kai responds:
Exactly, what are you trying to describe from these passages? Could you please explain yourself a bit further?
Abdurrahman wrote:
As we see Jesus(pbuh) contradicts Paul. Not only that, the Old Testament contradicts Paul as well:
Ezekiel 18:20-22
[20] The soul that sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.
[21] "But if a wicked man turns away from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all my statutes and does what is lawful and right, he shall surely live; he shall not die.
[22] None of the transgressions which he has committed shall be remembered against him; for the righteousness which he has done he shall live.
2 Chronicles 25:4
[4] But he did not put their children to death, according to what is written in the law, in the book of Moses, where the LORD commanded, "The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, or the children be put to death for the fathers; but every man shall die for his own sin."
Kai replies:
Again exactly what are you trying to describe here? In what sense do these passages contradict Paul?
Paul agreed with Ezekiel that sin leads to death (Read Romans 5 and 6)
Paul agreed with Ezekiel about repenting and the sins being forgiven:
18to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’
19“So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven. 20First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and to the Gentiles also, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and prove their repentance by their deeds (Acts 26).
I have declared to both Jews and Greeks that they must turn to God in repentance and have faith in our Lord Jesus (Acts 20: 20-21).
As to 2 Chronicle 25: 4 you commit the incredible fallacy to compare the death of Jesus with a human methaphor. It seems to me that you are assuming that Jesus is a literal Son of God.
More to come