Abdurrahman wrote:
ROMANS
1. "..His son Jesus Christ, our Lord, who was a descendent of David according to the flesh, & declared to be the son of God through the Spirit of holiness by his resurrection from the dead." Romans 1: 3-4. Here is stated the first aberration from the true message of Jesus. Paul raises him to the rank of the "son of God" & endows upon him 2 natures: one human "to the flesh" & the other "divine spiritual".
Kai replies:
But Jesus in the same way, as Paul, described to himself (Jesus) divine attributes.
And Secondly, are you not contradicting yourself at this point, I thought you said, that Paul never described deity to Christ, but merely claimed he was the Son of God.
Abdurrahman wrote:
2. "Grace & peace to you from God our father & from the Lord Jesus Christ" Romans 1:7. Here divinity is divided between 2: God & Jesus (father & son) with no mention of any 3rd entity sharing this divinity (the holy spirit).
Kai replies:
Considering the theological analogy, what do you mean by divided, and so what if the Holy Spirit is not mentioned here?
Abdurrahman wrote:
3. "..I thank my God through Jesus Christ…God, whom I serve with my whole heart…" Romans1: 8-9. Here Paul starts specifying privileges & functions to each of his 2 divine entities: thanking is a function of Jesus while worshipping is to God.
Kai replies:
So?
Abdurrahman wrote:
3. " [God] has left the sins committed in the past unpunished, & to demonstrate his righteousness at the present time that He might be just & the justifier of those who have faith in Jesus" Romans 3:26, "..in the day that God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel" Romans 2:16. These verses indicate that God's righteousness & forgiveness to people occur through their faith in Jesus (rather than the message of Jesus).
Kai replies:
I think you have misunderstood something?
I have heard Muslim scholars, (who are supposed to be intellegent, very intellegent) use this argument before.
How can you have faith in Jesus, unless you hear the message about Jesus and believe it? Do you see, these are two entirely different things: the source of salvation and the receiving of the salvation?
Romans 10: 14-15 may answer your question:
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
Abdurrahman wrote:
Then Paul refers to his own gospel, where is it??
Kai replies:
May suggest that you study 1 Thessalonians 1 and 2:
1: 5 Because our gospel came to you
2: 2 But with the help of our God we dared to tell you his gospel
2: 4 On the contrary, we speak as men approved by God to entrusted with the gospel
2: 8 We loved you so much that we were delighted to share with you, not only the gospel of our God, but our lives as well…
2: 9 …while we preached the gospel of God to you
3: 2: …in spreading the gospel of Christ
Is this sinking in? It’s the same gospel!
Abdurrahman wrote:
4. In Romans 3:25 "God presented him {Jesus} as a sacrifice/atonement/propitiation by his blood, through faith" & in Romans 5:8 " But God demonstrates his love to us in this: while we were still sinners, Christ died for us". This implies that the sins of mankind of the past & the present are nullified by Jesus' sacrifice of his blood & faith in such sacrifice (another of Paul's numerous additions to the original faith).
Kai replies:
In fact such a sacrifice was predicted by Isaiah at least 8 centuries before Christ war born (Isaiah 53):
Jesus himself refers to his death as atonement on several occasions:
Matthew 20:
17Now as Jesus was going up to Jerusalem, he took the twelve disciples aside and said to them, 18“We are going up to Jerusalem, and the Son of Man will be betrayed to the chief priests and the teachers of the law. They will condemn him to death 19and will turn him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified. On the third day he will be raised to life!”
You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27and whoever wants to be first must be your slave– 28just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”
Matthew 26:
26While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.”
Luke 24:
44He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, “This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high.”
John 3:
13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven–the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]
16“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.
Abdurrahman wrote:
One can't help wondering how God had no mercy on his so-called "son" by making him suffer like that! Wasn't there any other more merciful way in God's endless powers to provide love & forgiveness to his subjects?
Kai replies:
Well bro, do you consider yourself capable of teaching the Almighty?
Through the prophet Isaiah God revealed this message (Isaiah 53):
1 Who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the LORD been revealed?
2 He grew up before him like a tender shoot,
and like a root out of dry ground.
He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
3 He was despised and rejected by men,
a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.
Like one from whom men hide their faces
he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.
7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression [a] and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.
9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.
10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes [c] his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.
11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of life [d] and be satisfied [e] ;
by his knowledge [f] my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, [g]
and he will divide the spoils with the strong, [h]
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.