Abdurrahman wrote:
HEBREWS
1. "In the past God spoke to our forefathers through prophets, in these last days He has spoken to us by His son, whom he appointed heir of all things & through whom he has made the worlds" Hebrews 1:1-2. Here Jesus is the son of God. Now read this; "It was fitting for God, for whom & through whom everything exists, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of salvation perfect through suffering. As both the one who sanctifies & those who are being sanctified are all of one family, for which reason Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers" Hebrews 2:10-11. Here God is the almighty & Jesus is a suffering person leading others to salvation & thus becoming his brothers, i.e. all believers become the sons of God. Furthermore, to God the creator of all, Jesus is a faithful appointed prophet, same as Moses. "He [Christ] was faithful to the one who appointed him, just as Moses was faithful in all God's house" Hebrews 3: 2. But Paul retreats from this fact right in the following verses, as if it was a slip of the tongue " Jesus has been found worthy of more glory than Moses…Moses indeed was faithful as a servant in all God's house, testifying to what would be said in the future. But Christ is faithful as a son over his God's house…"
Kai replies:
So he was faithful like Moses but he is more than Moses, and so?
Abdurrahman wrote:
2. God has placed Jesus superior to the angels in Hebrews 1: 4 " He [Christ] sat at the right side of the Majesty in heaven having become so much better the angels." But, Jesus is retreated to a position lower than angels in the following paragraph, "But we see Jesus, who was put a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory & honor for the suffering of death" Hebrews 2: 9. So which verse do we believe?
Kai replies:
Exactly, where is the contradiction here?
He was glorified, He left the glory, He returned back to glory.
Do read Jesus’ own words on this very same issue:
‘And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began’ (John 17: 5)
Abdurrahman wrote:
3. "Every high priest is selected from among men & is appointed to represent them in matters pertaining to God…No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. So also Christ did not glorify himself to become high priest. It was God who called upon him "you are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek" Hebrews 5: 1-6/7:17--25. So, Jesus Christ has the rank of a "high priest", same as Aaron & Melchizedek. The latter is exalted to a very high status in Hebrews 7 being appointed a priest forever without being a descendant of Levi, with no known genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life & a Son of God. Jesus is likened to him.
Kai replies:
You are getting there bro!
Abdurrahman wrote:
4. " You have come to God, the judge of all… & to Jesus the mediator of the new convenant" Hebrews 12: 23. So Jesus here is just a mediator between God & the people, while God controls all. " May God of peace who brought up Jesus from the dead….may He make you equipped to do His will & may he work in us what is pleasant to Him…" Hebrews 13:20-21. So God, the almighty, revived Jesus from the dead & he is the One who makes people complete to fulfill His will. "During the days of his life on earth, he [Jesus] offered up prayers & petitions with loud cries & tears to the One who could save him from death; & he was heard because of his reverent submission to God" Hebrews 5:7. So Jesus was just a suffering fearing human who begged God the almighty "in loud cries & tears" to save him from death, & God did that.
Kai replies:
To be frankly honest at this point, I am getting tired to correcting your misunderstandings and lack of insight into the context and theological analogy. It’s related to the above, do your studies.
Abdurrahman wrote:
5. "For we have become partners in Jesus if we hold on to the confidence we had in the beginning to the end" Hebrews 3:14. "For it is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, & have tasted the heavenly gift (of faith), & have become partners of the Holy Spirit…" Hebrews 6: 4. Here, we learn that believers in the faith become partakers of Jesus & of the Holy Spirit.
Kai replies:
Exactly, so what’s the point you make?
Abdurrahman wrote:
General remarks on Paul's concepts of God & Jesus
1. Paul did not deny any of God's s superior qualities & high status. He remains the Majesty, the Creator & the Judge of all. It was God who raised Jesus from the dead & who endowed upon him the exalted level of high priest & son.
2. Jesus Christ remains human with human qualities & submission to God. Despite attaining higher ranks up to the level of son of God, he still needed God to raise him from the dead & was required to plead for that. He sits on the right side of God in heaven, but not on the throne. He stays second to God whenever both are mentioned in the same context. Paul has never given him any of the supreme qualities of God. His high status, powers & miracles are all ascribed to God.
Kai replies:
Did you already forget all about Romans 8: 5?
I think we have been through all this already!