And we continue with Paul's Epistles to the Romans
Abdurrahman wrote:
5. In Romans 5: 18-19 " Therefore, just as through one man's offense condemnation came to all men, so also through one man's righteous act justification of life came to all men. For as by one man's disobedience [Adam] many were made sinners, so also by one man's obedience [Jesus] many will be made righteous." In Romans 6:11 "..count yourselves dead to sin but alive to God in Christ Jesus". Here is another serious shift of faith. A man is not judged by his own sins & deeds, but rather by those of others! If you do bad, Jesus' sacrifice has provided you with propitiation, redemption & atonement provided you just believe in that. Conversely, if you do good, you still remain a sinner (being of Adam's seed)!
Kai replies:
You seem to confuse this matter! Yeah, as the passage says, its through Adam condemnation comes, however, the text implies clearly that we have all sinned due to Adam’s sin; in other words sin is effects:
‘Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned’ (Romans 5: 12)
Abdurrahman wrote:
6. In Romans 1:21-23 " Although they knew God, they neither glorified Him as God nor gave thanks to Him, but their thinking became futile & their hearts darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools & exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images of mortal man, birds, four-footed animals & reptiles.” Very strong right statement, so why did Christians (under Paul) did not do what he preached? Why do they pray to images & statues of Jesus, Mary & Saints?
Kai replies:
Christians under Paul did not pray to or worship images, statues of Jesus, Mary or the saints; again could you please provide us with some evidences.
Abdurrahman wrote:
7. "The One who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who lives in you" Romans 8:11. We have no objection to that statement for it demonstrates that God controls all. But note the capital "S" in spirit & the pronoun "who", both implying that God's spirit is something separate from God, an independent entity. If we return to the original script from which this is translated, we will find how seemingly simple insinuations like this can change the whole faith. Just put a small "s'" & use the pronoun "that" & all is right again with God being One, not two or three.
Kai replies:
Could you please show me the capital ‘S’ in the Greek manuscript.
However, could you please elaborate more on what you mean here; you seem totally confused about the Christian theology.
Abdurrahman wrote:
8. Another flop in translation is seen in Romans 8:15 " & by him we cry, 'Abba, father'..". This is by no means a referral to the famous Swedish pop group of the 1970's in the Holy Book! This is an "intended" mis-translation. As "Abba" means father in Arabic & Hebrew, the verse would correctly read ".. Father of our father" implying that Jesus is the son of God & those who believe in him have become their sons. In other words, God is the grandfather of believers in Paul's depiction of Christ! This is further assured in Romans 8:17 " If we are children, then we are heirs -heirs of God & co-heirs with Christ…"
Kai replies:
The word Abba in this passage is an Aramaic form of the Hebrew ab; thus the passage reads: Abba ho ratép.
Abdurrahman wrote:
9. "The Spirit intercedes for the saints according to the will of God" Romans 8:27, "It is Christ who died, & furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us" Romans 8:34. So, both the Spirit & Jesus will intercede for us at God. Now the Spirit is given an entity & powers to promote for the formation of a trinity.
Kai replies:
Again, you seem to interpret the Christian faith from an entirely different worldview or paradigm, could you please elaborate more on this and reveal what you consider to be the actual problem.
Abdurrahman wrote:
10. "…And from whom [the Israelites] comes the human/flesh of Christ, who is the eternally blessed God over all" Romans 9:5. Hold on. What is this? Jesus is the "eternally blessed God over all"! Wasn't he the son of the father (God) whom God had risen from the dead & is sitting to his right? Are they one or two?
Kai replies:
I thought you claimed, that Paul never claimed that Jesus was God, here is a literal contradiction, found within your own assessment.
Again, you seem to consider and interpret Christian teaching from an Islamic viewpoint; I guess there are other posts dealing with the whole topic of Trinity.
Abdurrahman wrote:
Now read this, "for there is no authority except from God" Romans 13:1, and this, " Now I say that Jesus has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God" Romans 15: 8. Are you confused? You have the right to be. In one verse Jesus is the eternally blessed God & in the other he is a servant of the circumcision (meaning the law of the Jews) with God having all the authority.
Kai replies:
Exactly, where is circumcision referred to in Romans 15: 8?
But I think you are about to get the point here, yea He is both!