Liberate wrote:See the bit I highlighted in bold with large font, would you like to tell us what the phrase "this number EXCLUDES" means
"This number (104) EXCLUDES "
whether named or unnamed -- whose status of memorizers did not reach us through isnad, as well as the women of both the Muhajirin and the Ansar. All of this memorizing was mass-transmitted."
Sources say 70 were killed in the Battle of Yamama not 450.
Liberate wrote:What tablets?
according to you glorious tablets = pages? glorious pages that some ended up in the belly of a goat?
Tablets are made of stones Pages are made of parchments. To different materials as we stated before. I did not say that the Tablets are pages.
Liberate wrote:If the koran existed as tablets why didn't Zaid simply just mention I went and collected the tablets of the koran from whoever had it
What were tablets made of back then ?
Liberate wrote:which is precisely what you do being deceitful with the ambiguity of an english thesaurus, yet claim you are without error.
Nope.
Liberate wrote:If the koran existed as tablets why didn't Zaid simply just mention I went and collected the tablets of the koran from whoever had it; which brings us to another question who had these tablets H2O? Aisha and her goat?
Tell us H2O how do you reconcile what you have said above with what you said on how the koran was collated?
We go by what the Quran says first. Quran mentions the material it was recorded on were Tablets and Pages.
What the hadeeth mentions are additional materials they wrote on. Hadeeth is not superior Quran in authenticity or report.
Most of my hadiths are obtained from muslims sources, I go straight to the the usc website, if you have anything we have not covered relating to the hadiths care to show them to us.
Already posted the translated ahadeeth from their origin.
Liberate wrote:The following clearly shows Uthman was placing suras where he thought they ought to be, not Mohammed, when did Uthman seek his 'prophetic' advise when he did these things? Or are they above fabricated hadiths?
Where are other ahadeeth to confirm this of different reports ?
โููุงูู ููุงูู ุฑูุณูููู ุงูููููู โ โุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนููููููู ููุณููููู
ู โ โุจููููู ุงููุฅูุณูููุงู
ู ุนูููู ุฎูู
ูุณู ุดูููุงุฏูุฉู ุฃููู ููุง ุฅููููู ุฅููููุง ุงูููููู ููุฃูููู โ โู
ูุญูู
ููุฏูุง โ โุฑูุณูููู ุงูููููู ููุฅูููุงู
ู ุงูุตููููุงุฉู ููุฅููุชูุงุกู ุงูุฒููููุงุฉู ููุงููุญูุฌูู ููุตูููู
ู ุฑูู
ูุถูุงูู
Neutral literal translation: โhe said a prophet said for โ โhe prayed to on him and he granted salvation โ โcoffees the Islam on five testimony that there is not god except to that โ โMohammad โ โprophet for ููุฅูููุงู
ู prayer and the giving of charity and pilgrimage and fasting ramadan โ
We can extract the five times a day prayer from the translation, it is still stating that allah prays for Mohammed and grants him peace/and or salvation!!! again you are dismissing the main point of my question who gave Uthmann permission to burn the other 7 dialects the prophet said the koran was revealed in?
Here is the catch 22 to that. We wrote the first one with no tashkeel and then added tashkeel to the other as we re-typed it of how it is pronounced.
Then you you went to
http://www.cimos.com/index.asp?src=try to see what the difference was. Your bot translation didnt render "Allah" ~ GOD also the term "Sallallahu alaihi wassalaam" does not mean โ"he prayed to on him and he granted salvation ". It mean" may Allah's benediction be upon him". And where did it come up with "Coffee" from ?
The usc website of Dr Mushin Khan's translation clearly has no parenthesis around fragmentary scripts for Bukhari vol 9 book 89 number 301, you pasted an english translation for Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509 and refused to paste a similar english translation for Bukhari vol 9 book 89 number 309 from any site, let us see who is being devious here unless ofcourse you are attacking Mushin Khan for not understanding arabic? which would not be surprise seeing it is what you have been doing from day one.
Its just plain and simple adn confirmed by another Arabic Speaking Christian. It does not exist in the Rabic text. In the Original sources for Muhsin Khan's translation there are in parenthesis denoting the translators interpolation.
Who are you trying to fool H2O?
The first quote as to the reason you became a haneef muslim was posted Jul 08 : ..........................
You then try an amalgamate a post you later made on a completely separate topic, separate subject and totally different forum for that matter made over two months later:
This is what I said before you made your fancy editing
H2O" wrote:Since you[Liberate] like to edit with your wishful thinking let our audience decide:
H2O wrote:Omega I havent forgot about this verse. As a matter of fact this was the verse I used to test the Quran with as final confirmation before becoming a Haneef. Now lets put it to the test.
H2O later wrote:So in my case, not speaking for no other muslim but my self and those whom may agree with me, how does Muhammad qualify as a Prophet of ุงูููููู G-D that satisfies me ?
1) The logical consistancy of the Quran.
2) The rational and challenge it gives
3) The wisdom and reasoning it applies
4) Its natural aspects it delivers that conforms with nature it self
5) The obedience it asks toward ุงูููููู with reverence and love.
6) How to live in submission to ุงูููููู with balance in life
7) How to treat others as you would want to be treated by another
Its message is direct, blunt, and to the point
9) The belief in ุงูููููู oneness and the uniqueness of his divinity and the exalted manner of His sublime majesty
10) The belief in the prophets adn that ุงูููููู sent prophets to all nations of people
11) The belief in angels, scriptures, the life after death, hell, paradise, judgement day, and the resurrection.
This is how I came to believe the Quran was from Allah qualifying Muhammad as Prophet. Needless to say my belief in him as a Prophet was not sparked by the prophecies or Scientific indications of unseen realities through out the Quran. These things merely increased my belief but was not the cause or the root of it.
You do know what later means right ? Again what does our audience think
You just cant let our audience think for themselves huh ? Lets see what you going to come back with on this issue that you dont want to stop ranting about.
Liberate wrote:I am hoping to show you just how rational you are making yourself look. You have said it is a saudi oil prophecy and in the next breath say it is not a saudi oil prophecy but somehow it still is a saudi oil prophecy! (which one should we believe? It seems you have not made up your own mind, and this is the fellow that believes his interpretation of the koran supercedes everybody else's?) says the arabs would get rich...and the saudi oil is how they got rich, how is it not then a saudi oil prophecy? will you make up your mind?
And I again I respond for the numerous time:
H2O wrote:And you going to get the same answer over and over.
H2O addressing OMEGA wrote:
Allah said to the muslim Arabs in the time of Muhammad that HE will soon enrich them. And it doesnt take a 12th grader to know the arabs were a poor nation at that time in which the Biazantine and Persian empires didnt dominate them. When did the Arab muslim of that region become RICH ? Who supplies the 1/3 of the world's oil and has the LARGEST oil reserves in the world. Is not Saudi Arabia one of the richest countries in the world that is now a GOLD MIND ?
H2O wrote:
Your right( Liberate) 9:28 doesnt mention any about oil. It mention a prophecy of the Arabs of the Region becoming rich, in which after the establishment of, they became rich, without it they would probably be just like afghanistan.
Loki wrote:according to a 1200 year timespan between you and the writer who at the time sought out wich was truth and wich wasn't.
Do you think i have the authority to reject statements of Clementine of Alexandria just because 'i think' he is lying? without the proof or arguments for it?
Sure why not. If you find enough evidence then yes you can.
Loki wrote:You don't read biographies and pick out what you like just because you don't like the author.
You can only do such thing based on hoq much knowledge you have.
Loki wrote:Bukhari alone trew hundreds of hadith verses away because he said that they were not authenthic and that the ones he compiled were authentic. Bukhari had certain rules to proof a authentic verse from a false one, and threw hundres aways because they failed the test. And the hadiths were never tested with the Quran because back then that rule didn't excist for a Quran to be equal with the hadith. The hadith was equal with the quran back then, everything in the hadith was cultural practise derived from the quran and Muhammed's following.
In which his student Muslim went back over his work and did not accept some ahadeeth he accepted. Sahih came out wiht lesser ahadeeth than Bukhari, obvioucly the student found flaw and rejected ahadeeth that Bukhari accepted as isnad.
The Term
Saheeh is applied to the
isnad of the ahadeeth. These collection were never verified with Quran.
One Scholar however in his book
Riyadhussalaheen by Imam Nawawi confirmed the Sahih collection with the Quran and with other Sahih ahadeeth in which a great portion of ahadeeth were rejected that were claimed to be Sahih.
He managed to collect a concise collection that does not contradict Quran and that confirm each other of multiple reports. He does not inlcude a hadeeth that only has one report that is not backed by others.
So there is more out there than you can fathom.
Loki wrote:The young bachelor was exiled for one year after scourging him
hundred times and the woman was stoned too. Tradition makes it very
clear that this punishment was executed according to the book of
Allah.
And I asked when did this happen, before or after the verses was revealed confirming the Stoning in Torah in the event mentioned in the hadeeth with the Jewish man and wowan which you didnt answer nor established anything.
Loki wrote:so practiclly more then 90% of the hadiths are useless, like the book of nursing and all that wich that cannot be compared to quranic verses is useless since you can't confirm all that stuff. Then you shouldn't believe a word of it. I've seen verses in wich Muhammed says that you loose two to one qirat's a day for owning a dog... that probably means that this isn't true since the quran can't confirm this.
Would you like me to repeat my self again ? If the hadeeth contradicts quran it is rejected, and if the hadeeth contradicts other hadeeths that confirm each other it is rejected. If the hadeeth is reported by only one person and not confirmed by another it is rejected.
Loki wrote:five times prayer is explained in detail in the hadiths, while it isn't in the quran. yet their are tons of stuff in hadiths wich are uncomparable to any quranic verse... yet tons of these hadiths are accepted because it applies to the 'times'.
The Quran mentions how many salawaat to be made by the time periods mentioned in the Quran. Fajr, Zhuhr, Asr, Maghrib and 'Ishaa'a
Loki wrote:to read a ahadeeth is a primary goal as well? i thought the quran was a complete book? i mean can or could Islam excist with only a quran? if their were no hadiths in excistence? why do you threat hadith material as semi-holy anyway. Christians don't even do that with their apocrypha, it's either false, untrusthworthy or unrevealing and rejected on those grounds. Neither is anyone obliged to read them.
Hadeeth are not divine nor semi holy. They are mere insight commentary to the Quran and tell us the Sunnah of Prophets with the Quran.