As usual you are venturing into unknown territory, a logical fallacy of making an argument out of silence. since you say it would have taken months then you know how many of the quraa existed? would you care to tell us how many there were?
No human being knows the exact amount. It was enough men to fight in a battle to be called a "Heavy Loss" and for those who were not killed to refer to them as "Heavy Loss" if they had died in the next battle in which their army consisted of thousands of mujaahideen.
..."Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields...
The number of men is expressed as a great number.
I suggest you read your hadiths further down the post that backs up my "illusionary reading"
In English or in Arabic ? We have the Arabic the original source lets see what you whipped up bellow.
Let us imagine this scenario you receive a lecture in a class, a few days later a few of your colleagues die, the principal calls you and askes you to gather the parts of the lecture together so that the lecture is not entirely lost, to you the lecture was somehow memorised from end to end by the few students? Does it not occur to you that parts of the lecture has already BEEN LOST? and what you are doing is a salvage mission?
Is the lecture recited no less than five times a day to memory ? That is a bad anology t compare with the preservation of the Quran which was, is recited dailey in dawn, noon, evening, sunset, night and more.
Pls tell us how many of this quraa existed pre and post the battle of yamama.
A great number to fight in wars to triumph over their enemies
I suggest you read the hadiths a few posts down before you embarass yourself some more.
In Englsih or Arabic ? Rome he might need your help on this, he cant see what we can see
lets see if you will correct your brother in his error.
Pls tell your audience how many of this quraa existed pre and post the battle of yamama?
A great number to triumph over their enemies in war, and even those who didnt die were still of a great number to fight in other wars.
Do you realise how much of an emabrassment you are making of yourself and your religion H2O but knowing you I guess you will conveniently ignore this thread and focus on other topics:
Do you realize how pathetic your ambition is. And do you realize you are argueing with us with sources that are not valid with us
in your criticism as a christian ? Thus will be shown below, and again I want to hear ROME get into to this but he is staying clear. He aided you on the begining but doesnt when it come to validity of translating the Arabic, I wonder why ?
Rome I put the Arabic hadeeth up for us, not for Liberate. We are ready to hear your input on this below on the accuracy of the translation of the hadeeth that Liberate is having a misleading field day with thinking that is what the hadeeth actually says.
Liberate Quotes translated Hadeeth wrote:Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
......So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)."....
Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 301:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
So you should search for the fragmentary scripts of the Quran and collect it (in one Book)."
The translation above is made by Dr. M. Muhsin Khan. As you noticed Vol. 6 Book 61, number 509 has "
( ) " which are the translators interpolated parenthasis and NOT from the Arabic nor does the Arabic say such a thing.
Vol.9 book 89 number 301 that parenthesis have been edited, taken out. I would like to know who took out the parenthesis ?
Volumn 006, Book 061, Hadith Number 509.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Zaid bin Thabit : Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an. Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project." Abu Bakr kept on urging me to accept his idea until Allah opened my chest for what He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and 'Umar. So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones and also from the men who knew it by heart, till I found the last Verse of Surat At-Tauba (Repentance) with Abi Khuzaima Al-Ansari, and I did not find it with anybody other than him. The Verse is:
'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty... (till the end of Surat-Baraa' (At-Tauba) (9.128-129) Then the complete manuscripts (copy) of the Qur'an remained with Abu Bakr till he died, then with 'Umar till the end of his life, and then with Hafsa, the daughter of 'Umar.
the above is direct copy paste from Dr. M. Muhsin Khan translation which was erased in Liberates quote of the same translated Hadeeth.
Now below is the original source in Arabic. The red in Arabic is what the translation is suppose to reflect.
โ โุญุฏุซูุง โ โู
ูุณู ุจู ุฅุณู
ุงุนูู โ โุนู โ โุฅุจุฑุงููู
ุจู ุณุนุฏ โ โุญุฏุซูุง โ โุงุจู ุดูุงุจ โ โุนู โ โุนุจูุฏ ุจู ุงูุณุจุงู โ โุฃู โ โุฒูุฏ ุจู ุซุงุจุช โ โุฑุถู ุงููู ุนูู โ โูุงู โ
โุฃุฑุณู ุฅูู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โู
ูุชู โ โุฃูู โ โุงููู
ุงู
ุฉ โ โูุฅุฐุง โ โุนู
ุฑ ุจู ุงูุฎุทุงุจ โ โุนูุฏู ูุงู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โุฑุถู ุงููู ุนูู โ โุฅู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โุฃุชุงูู ููุงู ุฅู ุงููุชู ูุฏ โ โุงุณุชุญุฑ โ โููู
โ โุงููู
ุงู
ุฉ โ โุจูุฑุงุก ุงููุฑุขู ูุฅูู ุฃุฎุดู ุฃู โ โูุณุชุญุฑ โ โุงููุชู ุจุงููุฑุงุก ุจุงูู
ูุงุทู ููุฐูุจ ูุซูุฑ ู
ู ุงููุฑุขู ูุฅูู ุฃุฑู ุฃู ุชุฃู
ุฑ ุจุฌู
ุน ุงููุฑุขู ููุช โ โูุนู
ุฑ โ โููู ุชูุนู ุดูุฆุง ูู
ููุนูู ุฑุณูู ุงููู โ โุตูู ุงููู ุนููู ูุณูู
โ โูุงู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โูุฐุง ูุงููู ุฎูุฑ ููู
ูุฒู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โูุฑุงุฌุนูู ุญุชู ุดุฑุญ ุงููู ุตุฏุฑู ูุฐูู ูุฑุฃูุช ูู ุฐูู ุงูุฐู ุฑุฃู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โูุงู โ โุฒูุฏ โ โูุงู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โุฅูู ุฑุฌู ุดุงุจ ุนุงูู ูุง ูุชูู
ู ููุฏ ููุช ุชูุชุจ ุงููุญู ูุฑุณูู ุงููู โ โุตูู ุงููู ุนููู ูุณูู
โ โูุชุชุจุน ุงููุฑุขู ูุงุฌู
ุนู ููุงููู ูู ูููููู ููู ุฌุจู ู
ู ุงูุฌุจุงู ู
ุง ูุงู ุฃุซูู ุนูู ู
ู
ุง ุฃู
ุฑูู ุจู ู
ู ุฌู
ุน ุงููุฑุขู ููุช ููู ุชูุนููู ุดูุฆุง ูู
ููุนูู ุฑุณูู ุงููู โ โุตูู ุงููู ุนููู ูุณูู
โ โูุงู ูู ูุงููู ุฎูุฑ ููู
ูุฒู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โูุฑุงุฌุนูู ุญุชู ุดุฑุญ ุงููู ุตุฏุฑู ููุฐู ุดุฑุญ ูู ุตุฏุฑ โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โูุนู
ุฑ โ โุฑุถู ุงููู ุนููู
ุง โ โูุชุชุจุนุช ุงููุฑุขู ุฃุฌู
ุนู ู
ู โ โุงูุนุณุจ โ โูุงููุฎุงู โ โูุตุฏูุฑ ุงูุฑุฌุงู ุญุชู ูุฌุฏุช ุขุฎุฑ ุณูุฑุฉ ุงูุชูุจุฉ ู
ุน โ โุฃุจู ุฎุฒูู
ุฉ ุงูุฃูุตุงุฑู โ โูู
ุฃุฌุฏูุง ู
ุน ุฃุญุฏ ุบูุฑู โ
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Disp ... 0&Rec=7435
โูุชุชุจุน ุงููุฑุขู ูุงุฌู
ุนู I would like to know where in that does it say fragments ? Liberate I was coming from what the hadeeth says in Arabic when I made my statement. We are coming from two different sources. I am coming and speaking from teh Arabic you are speaking from the interpolation of a translator that DOESNT EXIST IN THE ARABIC TEXT.
โูุชุชุจุน ุงููุฑุขู ูุงุฌู
ุนู Means "
So collect the entire Quran" as it is being addressed to Zaid in the singular imperative.
Angain I would like someone to show me were in that Hadeeth in Arabic is "fragments" at ? ROME want to help your Christian brother. ?
What do you think, he was looking for koran manuscripts or dictation from hafeez, btw I am sure your audience would like to know just how many of this ahafeez existed pre and post yamama?
Show us were in the original where the mention of
Fragments is ? I wasnt reading english when I commented. If
ROME wont help you then go get Apple Pie whom you supported in his Arabic Tafsir of Surah 86. I didnt see you asking him for his Arabic qualification. And better yet he doesnt even speak Arabic nor understand didly of grammar but you still sided with him when he has no Arabic qualification. Let Apple Pie go get his handy Lexicons to help you in this.
Read above
No you go read above.
Tell me something anybody who comes against any of your interpretations what is the first thing you do?? you patronize them that they don't understand arabic, how do I know you are fit enough to dismiss the scholars that have interpreted the koran...where are your qualifications?
Go find someone who speaks Arabic. ROME says he speaks. Wouldnt he be the perfect canadate to debate in our own language ? SO ask him to confirm what I said.
If you want to dismiss a scholar either you are the equal or greater especially in interpretations of a religious nature, you are not equal to any of the arabic scholars that have interpreted the koran, you would be made a laughing stock out of.
Yea, so you wnat me to accept a scholar that say its of for sisters to not wear the Hijab like the Scholar in France did ? Pathetic. This is not Christianity . We are not Christians. I still want to know how those paranthesis got edit from Khan's translation to make it look like it was a translation of the Arabic ?
pls read the hadiths I have shown you relative to the "fragments"
I have below
โ โุญุฏุซูุง โ โู
ูุณู ุจู ุฅุณู
ุงุนูู โ โุนู โ โุฅุจุฑุงููู
ุจู ุณุนุฏ โ โุญุฏุซูุง โ โุงุจู ุดูุงุจ โ โุนู โ โุนุจูุฏ ุจู ุงูุณุจุงู โ โุฃู โ โุฒูุฏ ุจู ุซุงุจุช โ โุฑุถู ุงููู ุนูู โ โูุงู โ
โุฃุฑุณู ุฅูู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โู
ูุชู โ โุฃูู โ โุงููู
ุงู
ุฉ โ โูุฅุฐุง โ โุนู
ุฑ ุจู ุงูุฎุทุงุจ โ โุนูุฏู ูุงู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โุฑุถู ุงููู ุนูู โ โุฅู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โุฃุชุงูู ููุงู ุฅู ุงููุชู ูุฏ โ โุงุณุชุญุฑ โ โููู
โ โุงููู
ุงู
ุฉ โ โุจูุฑุงุก ุงููุฑุขู ูุฅูู ุฃุฎุดู ุฃู โ โูุณุชุญุฑ โ โุงููุชู ุจุงููุฑุงุก ุจุงูู
ูุงุทู ููุฐูุจ ูุซูุฑ ู
ู ุงููุฑุขู ูุฅูู ุฃุฑู ุฃู ุชุฃู
ุฑ ุจุฌู
ุน ุงููุฑุขู ููุช โ โูุนู
ุฑ โ โููู ุชูุนู ุดูุฆุง ูู
ููุนูู ุฑุณูู ุงููู โ โุตูู ุงููู ุนููู ูุณูู
โ โูุงู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โูุฐุง ูุงููู ุฎูุฑ ููู
ูุฒู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โูุฑุงุฌุนูู ุญุชู ุดุฑุญ ุงููู ุตุฏุฑู ูุฐูู ูุฑุฃูุช ูู ุฐูู ุงูุฐู ุฑุฃู โ โุนู
ุฑ โ โูุงู โ โุฒูุฏ โ โูุงู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โุฅูู ุฑุฌู ุดุงุจ ุนุงูู ูุง ูุชูู
ู ููุฏ ููุช ุชูุชุจ ุงููุญู ูุฑุณูู ุงููู โ โุตูู ุงููู ุนููู ูุณูู
โ โูุชุชุจุน ุงููุฑุขู ูุงุฌู
ุนู ููุงููู ูู ูููููู ููู ุฌุจู ู
ู ุงูุฌุจุงู ู
ุง ูุงู ุฃุซูู ุนูู ู
ู
ุง ุฃู
ุฑูู ุจู ู
ู ุฌู
ุน ุงููุฑุขู ููุช ููู ุชูุนููู ุดูุฆุง ูู
ููุนูู ุฑุณูู ุงููู โ โุตูู ุงููู ุนููู ูุณูู
โ โูุงู ูู ูุงููู ุฎูุฑ ููู
ูุฒู โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โูุฑุงุฌุนูู ุญุชู ุดุฑุญ ุงููู ุตุฏุฑู ููุฐู ุดุฑุญ ูู ุตุฏุฑ โ โุฃุจู ุจูุฑ โ โูุนู
ุฑ โ โุฑุถู ุงููู ุนููู
ุง โ โูุชุชุจุนุช ุงููุฑุขู ุฃุฌู
ุนู ู
ู โ โุงูุนุณุจ โ โูุงููุฎุงู โ โูุตุฏูุฑ ุงูุฑุฌุงู ุญุชู ูุฌุฏุช ุขุฎุฑ ุณูุฑุฉ ุงูุชูุจุฉ ู
ุน โ โุฃุจู ุฎุฒูู
ุฉ ุงูุฃูุตุงุฑู โ โูู
ุฃุฌุฏูุง ู
ุน ุฃุญุฏ ุบูุฑู โ
http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Disp ... 0&Rec=7435
Doesnt say anthing about fragments.
What are you saying now?
This is what you said earlier in this thread:
Quote:
Zaid said he successfully collected the entire Quran. How did he know he collected the entire Quran if he was not Hafeez or not of the Qurraa'a ? [Tell us H2O what does Hafeez mean?] He obviously new cause what he transcribed into a complete book had to have been comfirmed by the Qurraa'a ie ahafeez who knew the entire Quran.
You are now contradicting yourself over what you said about zaid being a hafeez I have to wonder if you have a short attention span or you and your wife are taking turns masquerading as your nick.
You must be got bogged reading comprehension , yes read it all again.
Zaid said he successfully collected the entire Quran. How did he know he collected the entire Quran if he was not Hafeez or not of the Qurraa'a ? He obviously new cause what he transcribed into a complete book had to have been comfirmed by the Qurraa'a ie ahafeez who knew the entire Quran.
You understand yet ?
would you care to tell us why Ibn Kathir is in error (and everybody else who disagrees with you) and you are incapable of error?
Already did, go back and read.
Did you understand that blue. I dont think your included
The koran used in that website is from Pickthall an english fellow using biblical language, you have told us several times that this is a terrible translation yet you reference it in your signature, are you this dishonest in wanting people to read something you regard as full of mistakes?
If it is for your purpose of using them then of course not. Translations are not meant for criticism. They were meant to convey a basic message to peopel who wre sincerely seeking to learn and understand which is not your position.
You told us you were translating the koran into english, did you forget or was that one of your abandoned projects while you decide which pizza slice of islam to adopt?
As I said before. "Coming to a book store near you" that is backed by the University of of Azhar and the University of Medina. Just wait, you will see. then you will find out my Arabic qualification then.