Do you realise your hadith throws your whole argument that the ahafeez had the entire koran memorised from end to end in tatters?
That doesnt mean Abi Khuzaima wasnt Hafeez whom Zaid could have also collected it from his memory rather than text. Its an up in the Air issue. He could of well been one of those Ahafeez who knew the entire Quran whom Zaid got the last verse of Taubah from. Also, this is what Zaid went out and collect. This doesnt mean he went to every single person through out Arabia whihc would have taken months to do but he went to those who were local and available.
As usual you are venturing into unknown territory, a logical fallacy of making an argument out of silence. since you say it would have taken months then you know how many of the quraa existed? would you care to tell us how many there were?
The hadith indicates they only had it in bits
Read the hadith in it's proper context
Yup you and your illusionary reading.
I suggest you read your hadiths further down the post that backs up my "illusionary reading"
whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost.
This indicates a larg portion of the Quran was memorized.
Let us imagine this scenario you receive a lecture in a class, a few days later a few of your colleagues die, the principal calls you and askes you to gather the parts of the lecture together so that the lecture is not entirely lost, to you the lecture was somehow memorised from end to end by the few students? Does it not occur to you that parts of the lecture has already BEEN LOST? and what you are doing is a salvage mission?
..So I started looking for the Qur'an and collecting it from (what was written on) palmed stalks, thin white stones...
How did you determine how much of the Quran was written on those materials ? The Quran in Arabic in book size is less than a half inch in 8.5" X 11". The number of written materials is not mentioned.
and also from the men who knew it by heart,
How can you determine how many Qurraa'a men he went to and how much Quran they knew by heart ?
Pls tell us how many of this quraa existed pre and post the battle of yamama.
Hadeeth in context does not make mention that Zaid had it bits. there is no volume indication just you speculating conjecture of whishful thinking.
I suggest you read the hadiths a few posts down before you embarass yourself some more.
it says we have lost those who memorised the koran (never does it state they had the entire koran from end to end memorised),
Nope it doesnt say that. This is what it says.
Narated By Zaid bin Thabit : Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost.
The hadith indicates only some of the Qurraaa'a had died not all.
Pls tell your audience how many of this quraa existed pre and post the battle of yamama?
How does this help you?
you mean orally he couldn't find anybody else with said verse?
He collected it some how some way that is unidentified.
or he couldn't find anybody's animal skin, bark, leaves with said verse?
Does it say he collected it from him from written materials ?
Do you realise how much of an emabrassment you are making of yourself and your religion H2O but knowing you I guess you will conveniently ignore this thread and focus on other topics:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 509:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr As-Siddiq sent for me when the people! of Yamama had been killed (i.e., a number of the Prophet's Companions who fought against Musailama). (I went to him) and found 'Umar bin Al-Khattab sitting with him. Abu Bakr then said (to me), "Umar has come to me and said: "Casualties were heavy among the Qurra' of the! Qur'an (i.e. those who knew the Quran by heart) on the day of the Battle of Yalmama, and I am afraid that more heavy casualties may take place among the Qurra' on other battlefields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost. Therefore I suggest, you (Abu Bakr) order that the Qur'an be collected." I said to 'Umar, "How can you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" 'Umar said, "By Allah, that is a good project. "Umar kept on urging me to accept his proposal till Allah opened my chest for it and I began to realize the good in the idea which 'Umar had realized." Then Abu Bakr said (to me). 'You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for (the fragmentary scripts of) the Qur'an and collect it in one book)." By Allah If they had ordered me to shift one of the mountains, it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an...
Bukhari Volume 9, Book 89, Number 301:
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit:
Abu Bakr sent for me owing to the large number of casualties in the battle of Al-Yamama, while 'Umar was sitting with him. Abu Bakr said (to me), 'Umar has come to my and said, 'A great number of Qaris of the Holy Quran were killed on the day of the battle of Al-Yamama, and I am afraid that the casualties among the Qaris of the Quran may increase on other battle-fields whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost. Therefore I consider it advisable that you (Abu Bakr) should have the Qur'an collected.' I said, 'How dare I do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?' 'Umar said, By Allah, it is something beneficial.' 'Umar kept on pressing me for that till Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chest of 'Umar and I had in that matter, the same opinion as 'Umar had." Abu Bakr then said to me (Zaid), "You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. So you should search for the fragmentary scripts of the Quran and collect it (in one Book)." Zaid further said: By Allah, if Abu Bakr had ordered me to shift a mountain among the mountains from one place to another it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Qur'an...
What do you think, he was looking for koran manuscripts or dictation from hafeez, btw I am sure your audience would like to know just how many of this ahafeez existed pre and post yamama?
This leaves a much bigger question what else could he have left out, your hadiths state several verses are missing.
Goes back to what I said. Someone must have confirmed he had the entire Quran for him to know he had collected all of it.
Read above
I am not the one dismissing venerated islamic scholars and historians as idiots who didn't know what they were talking about.
Show me where it says I have to be a graduate of an Islamic school to dismiss a scholars statements.
Tell me something anybody who comes against any of your interpretations what is the first thing you do?? you patronize them that they don't understand arabic, how do I know you are fit enough to dismiss the scholars that have interpreted the koran...where are your qualifications?
If you want to dismiss a scholar either you are the equal or greater especially in interpretations of a religious nature, you are not equal to any of the arabic scholars that have interpreted the koran, you would be made a laughing stock out of.
I am not the one retranslating the koran and claiming Yusuif Ali, Hilali and Khan, Pickthall, Sher Ali, Ibn Kathir were all in error and made terrible translations and only me with no arabic scholar qualification to my name is so arrogant to proclaim I have the monopoly on the truth and interpretation of islam your fellow muslims have confronted you over this ego you chose not to respond to them, you are what is referred to as driftwood all alone at sea the translator interpretator and
imam of your own doctrine, the beginning of a sect.
Read the begining of the Introduction to the translations. They said it over and over their translation is not the Quran and is subject to error. Non of them said their translation was the Authorized Version. I am not alone in this about rejecting translations of the Quran. We have no need of them. There are thousands of Arabic Speaking muslims hold the same view .
[Why would he be told to look for the koran if he already had it memorised??]
What, are you another comatos one ?
pls read the hadiths I have shown you relative to the "fragments"
H2O wrote:Zaid said he successfully collected the entire Quran. How did he know he collected the entire Quran if he was not Hafeez or not of the Qurraa'a ? He obviously new cause what he transcribed into a complete book had to have been comfirmed by the Qurraa'a ie ahafeez who knew the entire Quran
Does it look like I supported that Zaid knew the entire Quran ?
What are you saying now?
This is what you said earlier in this thread:
Zaid said he successfully collected the entire Quran. How did he know he collected the entire Quran if he was not Hafeez or not of the Qurraa'a ? [Tell us H2O what does Hafeez mean?] He obviously new cause what he transcribed into a complete book had to have been comfirmed by the Qurraa'a ie ahafeez who knew the entire Quran.
You are now contradicting yourself over what you said about zaid being a hafeez I have to wonder if you have a short attention span or you and your wife are taking turns masquerading as your nick.
H2O I lost interest in taking you seriously long ago, compare what you said above with what you said earlier:
As of july according to your post you weren't associated with the shia but now (November) you are best buddies, I have to wonder how you look yourself in the mirror and pretend to us you really are sure of what you believe in when it is obvious you are making it up as you go along.
I am not associated. Correct. That doesnt mean we cant help each other. Just like the Sunnies and the Shia teamed up in Iraq. He has his madzhab and we have ours, but are to still repect each other.
I see maybe christians should rush over and receive help from mormons, or branch davidians, or jehovah witnesses or maybe churches of satan since they are called a church and believe in God? Is this behaviour universal in islam? The enemy of my enemy is my friend?
The sunnies and shia teamed up in Iraq?
Try not to be so revealing about your psyche we already know you support the killing of anybody who confronts your religion, now you are telling us you and your shia brothers are teaming up against the american infidels similar to what is happening in Iraq aren't you an american? If you hate your own country so much why don't you emigrate to the islamic paradise that is saudi arabia, where you can watch gays being beheaded with popcorn and refreshments, or have the religious police flog you for not bowing down to the ka'baa in time. I am beginning to understand why you are a muslim, I suspect it is the same reason why you came against your rabbis when you were a proselyte jew, and is the same reason why you have carved an antagonist niche within islam against the majority. it is the same reason why you are wanting the american government to come hard against muslim converts within america, seems you can't wait to get to jannah eh?. A psychiatrist would have a field day with your "them against me" attitude.
Pls make up your mind just a few sentences above you said no now you say yes are you reading what you are typing? You are either desperate for a prophecy or seriously confused.
Read it again. Maybe you not seeing correctly.
I find it incredulous you can be this patronising seeing you do not have a leg to stand on, this is your entire quote in response to mine your responses I have highlighted in red:
Quote:
and the above means what you became a haneef because of the prediction of saudi oil in sura 9:28? yes or no?
Nope. Just means it was a last confirmation.
Liberate wrote:
how I came to believe the Quran was from Allah qualifying Muhammad as Prophet. Needless to say my belief in him as a Prophet was not sparked by the prophecies or Scientific indications of unseen realities through out the Quran. These things merely increased my belief but was not the cause or the root of it.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... 2112#42112
Quote:
and the above means what you became a haneef because of the prediction of saudi oil in sura 9:28? yes or no?
Yes.
Do you see your contradictory responses in successive posts, when I asked you the very same question: "and the above means what you became a haneef because of the prediction of saudi oil in sura 9:28? yes or no"?
Do you see why I don't take you seriously seeing you can change your responses like this in mid flow?
I am not the one contradicting the english language, by all means show us this rule let us see where you are basing your free lance take on islam from do you know what is stopping any arabic speaker from coming over to you and saying this is what the koran really says?
Which is in effect what you have been saying all along Ibn Kathir is in error and everybody else
You should read more of their work to see what they say on what they call their opinions that are subject to error.
Listen to yourself, at least they are humble enough to declare their interpretations are subject to error and yours are not subject to error because?
basically everybody and every mainstream doctrine in islam?
:roll:
would you care to tell us why Ibn Kathir is in error (and everybody else who disagrees with you) and you are incapable of error?
You don't even know your own ethnic language and are associating yourself with a language foreign to your greek heritage calling it "our language", I am sure your former mentors at al-azhar will be real impressed seeing a former proselyte jew megalomaniac with no arabic scholar qualifications dictating to them what their religion says. who are you to dictate to arabs and muslims what the koran says when you have no qualifications to say otherwise.
BTW H2O you never answered when I asked why do you have a koran link in your signature when you have told us several times it is a terrible translation???
Surely you are aware that I am talking about your signature:
Download Quran and Hadeeth for Free here http://www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html Learn about Islam from a Non dictatorial view
The koran used in that website is from Pickthall an english fellow using biblical language, you have told us several times that this is a terrible translation yet you reference it in your signature, are you this dishonest in wanting people to read something you regard as full of mistakes?
This brings me to what I told when you were first on this forum:
Liberate wrote:
It is impressive, and the height of arrogance that you are not a native arab speaker you are a learner of the language but everybody from Hilali and Khan, Sher Ali, Yusuf Ali, Marmaduke Pickthall were all completely inept at the interpretation of the koran according to you, but only you and your phantom make it up as you go along version, and your fringe islamic sect is supreme in it's interpretation of islam yet arabic is not your native language, you hardly speak your native language, and when you find it hard to express your views in english, everybody in this forum bar you has terrible reading comprehension
Quote:
All those translators were also no native arab speakers. And being a born arab speaker is irrelevant
Wait a minute for someone who arabic is not their mother tongue and who is not a recognised scholar of the language, and by all implications is nothing more than a student of the language, don't you find it a bit arrogant to imply that you are the greatest arabic speaker and interpreter this side of the atlantic?
Quote:
. Many people that are born Arabic Speakers do not understand Quranic Arabic. It is not the same as modern Arabic.
Ofcourse they don't understand it, but you do (Maybe you should take a step back and listen to yourself, is your ego this big? you have made serious blunders about teachings in islam in some of your posts, some you amended and some you did not, you are in no position to interpret the koran for the rest of the islamic world, I suspect they will make a laughing stock out of your translations), you are not a born arabic speaker but already you know it more than anybody else who has interpreted the koran, they were all lying and had terrible reading comprehension, every single one of them that is why there are contradictions. This is the muslim mentality, the jews and christian were all lying and corrupted their books, fellow muslims were all lying, incompetent and had terrible reading comprehension, if they are all lying and made terrible grave translational errors, shouldn't you be working night and day from day one producing a PROPER QURAN that is free of all this grave translational errors?
You told us you were translating the koran into english, did you forget or was that one of your abandoned projects while you decide which pizza slice of islam to adopt?