Liberate wrote:Quote:
How does this contradict the number of 450 by Ibn Kathir?
Quote:
Whats the difference between 104 and 450 ?
Is that what your source says:
This is what it says:
The men and women Companions
known as the memorizers of Qur'an (al-qurra') were:
1-4. The Four Rightly-Guided Caliphs. However, Abu Bakr and `Umar died before memorizing it completely, while `Uthman and `Ali were among those who gathered (jama`a) the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him. `Uthman was one of those who used to recite the entire Qur'an in one day and night.
5. `Abd Allah ibn Mas`ud -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
6. Salim, Mawla Abi Hudhayfa -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
7. Mu`adh ibn Jabal -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
8. Ubay ibn Ka`b -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him. He would recite it all in eight days.
9. Zayd ibn Thabit -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
10. Abu Zayd -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
11. Abu al-Darda' -- Allah be well-pleased with him-- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him. His class in the mosque of Damascus counted 1,600 students, each ten with one monitor. If a student made a mistake the monitor corrected him, and if the monitor made a mistake Abu al-Darda' corrected him.
12. Abu Musa al-Ash`ari -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
13. `Abd Allah ibn `Amr ibn al-`As -- Allah be well-pleased with him. He was ordered by the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- to recite it in no less than seven days.
14. Talha ibn `Ubayd Allah -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
15. Sa`d ibn Abi Waqqas -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
16. Hudhayfa ibn al-Yaman -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
17. Abu Hurayra -- Allah be well-pleased with him. He was examined by Ubay.
18. `Abd Allah ibn al-Sa'ib -- Allah be well-pleased with him. He was examined by Ubay.
19. `Abd Allah ibn `Umar -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
20. `Abd Allah ibn `Abbas -- Allah be well-pleased with him. He was examined by Ubay.
21. `Abd Allah ibn al-Zubayr -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
22. `A'isha bint Abi Bakr -- Allah be well-pleased with her.
23. Hafsa bint `Umar -- Allah be well-pleased with her.
24. Umm Salama -- Allah be well-pleased with her.
25. `Ubada ibn al-Samit -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
26. Mu`adh Abu Halima -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
27. Mujammi` ibn Jariya -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
28. Fadala ibn `Ubayd -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
29. Maslama ibn Mukhallad -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
30. Anas ibn Malik -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
31. Umm Waraqa bint `Abd Allah ibn al-Harith -- Allah be well-pleased with her.
32. Abu Umama al-Bahili -- Allah be well-pleased with him.
33. `Utba ibn `Amir -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him.
34. Tamim al-Dari -- Allah be well-pleased with him -- one of those who gathered the Qur'an in the time of the Prophet -- Allah bless and greet him -- and who used to recite the entire Qur'an in one day and night.
When the above are added to the
seventy [34+70=
104]Ansar who were killed in the battle of Yamama against Musaylima the Arch-Liar, and who were all memorizers of the Qur'an (qurra') [Bukhari and Muslim], the number of the Companions who had memorized the Qur'an rises to over a hundred [
104]. This number excludes the numerous Companions -- whether named or unnamed -- whose status of memorizers did not reach us through isnad, as well as the women of both the Muhajirin and the Ansar. All of this memorizing was mass-transmitted. The numbers of the next generations, of course, keep rising exponentially in identical fashion of transmission, and praise belongs to Allah.
Sources:
1. al-Nawawi, al-Tibyan fi Adab Hamala al-Qur'an (p. 31);
2. al-Dhahabi, Tabaqat al-Qurra' (1:24-50)
3. al-Suyuti, al-Itqan fi `Ulum al-Qur'an (1:70-72);
4. al-Zarkashi, al-Burhan fi `Ulum al-Qur'an (1:241-243);
5. Nur al-Din `Itr, `Ulum al-Qur'an al-Karim (p. 164-166).
http://www.sunnah.org/history/memorizers.htm
They say 70 were killed in the war of Yamama in which total of known memorizers were 104. There reference were by the following scholars.
Liberate wrote:Pls tell us how the phrases in bold contradict the number of 450?
We all know you were a terrible at math.
Liberate wrote:Completely irrelevant have you forgotten this ayat:
Nay! This is a Glorious Qurโan, (Inscribed) in the Al-Luah Al-Mahfuz (The Preserved Tablet)! (Qurโan 85:21-22)
It says there is a copy of the koran in heaven, is allah keeping up with the 1,000+ characters added by the dajjal and his scribes or maybe the above is a terrible translation and your translation somehow omits the obvious as you have done all along.
And there are different views on the interpretation of that verse. Some believe The tablets mentioned are refering the actual tablets the Quran was written on, and others believe it is that tablets which are in heaven.
I agree with the earlier cause Allah menitons the Quran was also written on pages.
Surah 80
[11] By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction:
[12] Therefore let whose will, keep it in remembrance.
[13] (It is) in suhuf held (greatly) in honour,
[14] Exalted (in dignity), kept pure and holy
[15] (Written) by the hands of scribes,
[16] Honourable and Pious and Just.
"
Suhuf " ~ pages
These verses are not totally agreed on also as some who regard the tablets are in heaven rather than the tablets on which the Quran was actually written on believe the scribes here are refereng to angels. This we disagree with being that the verse as it is in connection with the various materials the Quran was recorded on such as Tablets and Pages (Parchments etc) as mentioned in the Quran are two different materials mentioned in plurality that cannot be allocated to
Ummul-Kitab which is one heavenly book.
Liberate, you keep introducing one particular madzhab beliefs in Islam which does not constitued the Islamic world views. If you want to study the various madzhab you can go to the link I provided below.
Liberate wrote:The hadith only makes sense if parts of the book have already been lost and you need to collate it to stop other parts being lost. This is the only rationale I can see within that hadith it makes no sense compiling the koran if there were quraa left right and centre that knew the entire book.
It is biased rational conjecture on your behalf with the incomplete sources you obtained which are only from one perspective view. You sources are merely copy and paste from other Chritian websites which are not your own labored efforts in searching through all the hadeeths available in english nor the Quran which you have never completely read to establish criticism.
Liberate wrote:It was arranged in other to be easily memorised, was this the way Mohammed arranged it? Why did it have to be arranged in a different chronology to that alledgedly done by Mohammed?
It was arranged in its order the way the Prophet recited it.
allah didn't do a good job seeing you even admit there have been additions to it and there are numerous sahih hadiths that there are omissions from it. (BTW since Mohammed said the koran was revealed in 7 readings who gave uthman the authority to burn the other copies including those 7 readings against what allah's prophet had said?)
โูุงู ูุงู ุฑุณูู ุงููู โ โุตูู ุงููู ุนููู ูุณูู
โ โุจูู ุงูุฅุณูุงู
ุนูู ุฎู
ุณ ุดูุงุฏุฉ ุฃู ูุง ุฅูู ุฅูุง ุงููู ูุฃู โ โู
ุญู
ุฏุง โ โุฑุณูู ุงููู ูุฅูุงู
ุงูุตูุงุฉ ูุฅูุชุงุก ุงูุฒูุงุฉ ูุงูุญุฌ ูุตูู
ุฑู
ุถุงู โ
โููุงูู ููุงูู ุฑูุณูููู ุงูููููู โ โุตููููู ุงูููููู ุนููููููู ููุณููููู
ู โ โุจููููู ุงููุฅูุณูููุงู
ู ุนูููู ุฎูู
ูุณู ุดูููุงุฏูุฉู ุฃููู ููุง ุฅููููู ุฅููููุง ุงูููููู ููุฃูููู โ โู
ูุญูู
ููุฏูุง โ โุฑูุณูููู ุงูููููู ููุฅูููุงู
ู ุงูุตููููุงุฉู ููุฅููุชูุงุกู ุงูุฒููููุงุฉู ููุงููุญูุฌูู ููุตูููู
ู ุฑูู
ูุถูุงูู โ
You mind explaining what we added and what did it change. With or without tashkeel it still says the same thing has the same meaning.
How many times have you set foot on arabian soil?
Guess
Liberate wrote:Why don't you quote for us the Bukhari hadith as it is present in english at al-islam.com?
They dont have Bukhari it available in English, only in Arabic. I posted it in English translated by Dr Muhsin Khan which can be downloaded from the link I supplied below.
Didnt you read what you Lebenese Christian brother said:
Rome wrote:A simple reply would be that the word "fragments" is not included in the above hadith in the arabic text.
But neither does it exclude the notion that the Quran may have been collected by text, orally or even both.
In which I said:
H2O wrote:It gives the notion of both ie it was collected from written text and what was memorize as show below.
Or is it he also need Arabic Scholar Qualification in order to understand ahadeeth also is why you are over looking his confirmation ?
Liberate wrote:Need I remind you that when Mohammed had one of his 'fits' it would occur at inopportune times his scribes would rush over to write the revelation with whatever they had to hand, are you trying to make an argument that the leafs, animals skin, barks e.t.c were insignificant? your religion disagrees with you, your hadiths disagrees with you (not even closely contradicted in the koran)
And copies were made and distributed through out the community for those who can read to learn and teach those who could not.
Liberate wrote:In that case will you agree with Apple Pie on his exegesis? we can both agree he came with sources? Do you agree with what he said because he came with sources?
Why should anything you say supercede a recognised imam or arabic scholar?
There is a big difference between our selves and Apple Pie. He free lances his translations using other translations as guides then he goes back makes changes to what he believes is the meaning, whom doesnt speak Arabic a wit, doesnt know how to translate grammar, and doesnt know Arabic parts of speach if it was to slap him. He has to go back to find out what each and every word means, he cannot look at a word and know what it means unless which he has already made himself aquinted with, neither knows what particle and participle words are. We challenged him to translate a verse without knowing what ayah or surah it is. He remained mute. He takes up all other challenges but wont take that up. We still have the challenge open.
Liberate wrote:Here we go again, didn't you mention in several posts that you became a muslim because of this alledge prophecy of saudi oil you now try and wriggle out of what you said by trying to argue in terms of semantics when the end result puts you straight back in the logical fallacy you have built for yourself...
Since you like to edit with your wishful thinking let our audience decide:
H2O wrote:Omega I havent forgot about this verse. As a matter of fact this was the verse I used to test the Quran with as final confirmation before becoming a Haneef. Now lets put it to the test.
H2O later wrote:So in my case, not speaking for no other muslim but my self and those whom may agree with me, how does Muhammad qualify as a Prophet of ุงูููููู G-D that satisfies me ?
1) The logical consistancy of the Quran.
2) The rational and challenge it gives
3) The wisdom and reasoning it applies
4) Its natural aspects it delivers that conforms with nature it self
5) The obedience it asks toward ุงูููููู with reverence and love.
6) How to live in submission to ุงูููููู with balance in life
7) How to treat others as you would want to be treated by another
Its message is direct, blunt, and to the point
9) The belief in ุงูููููู oneness and the uniqueness of his divinity and the exalted manner of His sublime majesty
10) The belief in the prophets adn that ุงูููููู sent prophets to all nations of people
11) The belief in angels, scriptures, the life after death, hell, paradise, judgement day, and the resurrection.
This is how I came to believe the Quran was from Allah qualifying Muhammad as Prophet. Needless to say my belief in him as a Prophet was not sparked by the prophecies or Scientific indications of unseen realities through out the Quran. These things merely increased my belief but was not the cause or the root of it.
What do you all the audience think ?
Liberate wrote:You are not making much sense H2O or are you trying to divert attention from your embarassing interpretations of saudi oil prophecy in sura 9:28?
And you going to get the same answer over and over.
H2O addressing OMEGA wrote:Allah said to the muslim Arabs in the time of Muhammad that HE will soon enrich them. And it doesnt take a 12th grader to know the arabs were a poor nation at that time in which the Biazantine and Persian empires didnt dominate them. When did the Arab muslim of that region become RICH ? Who supplies the 1/3 of the world's oil and has the LARGEST oil reserves in the world. Is not Saudi Arabia one of the richest countries in the world that is now a GOLD MIND ?
H2O wrote:Your right( Liberate) 9:28 doesnt mention any about oil. It mention a prophecy of the Arabs of the Region becoming rich, in which after the establishment of, they became rich, without it they would probably be just like afghanistan.
Why you are so persistant on this issue is amazing. What are you afraid of ? You are not going to change my mind and you know this, so what is it, our audience ? I think that is what it is cause you wont get off this subject. You have already stated your criticism and repeated you self over five times on the topic in the offense and I have already stated my grounds. But this isnt enough for you though you keep going and going and going like an energizer bunny wabbit.
Loki wrote:1. you don't have the authority to reject the early islam fathers who compiled the hadiths
according to who ?
Loki wrote:2. the hadiths are allready sorted out truth from error at the very beginning
False. Ahadeeth were authenticated by unbroken chain of transmission to the best of the scholars abilities. The hadeeths were never tested by Quran. Also, many hadeeth contradict each other.
Loki wrote:3. I have hadiths in wich Muhammed commands the punishment of stoning... so it doesn't concern the torah but the quran as Muhammed points out when he commands it. If you want i'll post them for you.
And when did this particular event happen, before or after the issue of the Jewish man and woman who were stone by the rajam found in the Torah ? If it was before then you would have a point, and would consider for investigation of the hadeeth with others. But if it was after, then we are still in the same boat as to why those verses were revealed comfirming the practice of Rajm that was continued. You would have to produce proof that was before the verses of the Quran that confirm the practice of rajam. All you can do in this matter is conjecture cause you are not aquinted with the science of hadith and how to date them.
Loki wrote:4. If the hadith needs to confirm the quran, then there is no needs for hadiths, it's all in the quran allready
Who ever said hadeeth confirming Quran. It is the Quran that confirms that authenticity of the ahadeeth. Ahadeeth are commentary that give us the reason of why such and such verses were revealed helps us to understand the historical meaning of the Quran, in which there is a general meaning that is standard and clear for us.
Loki wrote:5. Why does 90% of the sharia laws consist of hadith material? when there is no need for external scripture.
Have you ever studied Shariah law ? I dont think you ever did to mention such a ridiculous comment. Have you ever heard of
Fiqhus-sunnah ? It is the major schools of thought "
madzhab" that use both Quran and sunnah to establish shariah law ? Also have you ever read
Sahih al-Bukhari and
Mulims collections ? Each topic or chapter for hadeeths is aided by a Quranic verse that established the standard of the law in which we adopt which is practiced according to the sunnah of our Prophet that is recorded in hadeeth.
This is the Link for Fiqhus-sunnah
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... c&start=40
Loki wrote:6. Why do you base holy laws on laws that should be rejected because the lack of confirmation in the quran? For example, what if you had to pray 10 times instead of 5 in order for Allah to hear you? can the quran confirm this? no, the hadith is the only material for this, and it's a untrustworthy book as you pointed out. Your way of reasoning crumbles if you look into it.
Wrong. The five daily prayers are mentioned in the Quran. The link we provided about on Fiqhus-sunnah provided proof. And you have it all backwards. What should be rejected is hadeeth, not Quran, that show lack of comfirmation by other hadeeths.
Loki wrote:And i've come across sites from muslims who literally hate muslims that disregard bukhari and muslim material as utterly false or weak because it doesn't apply to 21th century western standards.
Thats good to hear they hate them, cause they are doing the right thing. They are sticking to the Quran as the primary source.
Loki wrote:1. While most of these people that reject them, never probably read the hadiths fully and probably aren't even scholars on the subject
I dont think so. Primary goal of a Muslim is to read Quran and ahadeeth available. I find it not likely that they havent read Bukhari and Muslim. I have and they have a right as a muslims to disagree or to accept a hadeeth on good grounds. Hadeeths are not divine nore the word of Allah.
Loki wrote:2. Muhammed was not a role model for the 21th century or any time for that matter... even without the hadith the quran could confirm this. You can flip flop all you want, but the truth remains the same.
Is Jesus you role model ? Is he the role model for a Jew ? So of course our Prophet wouldnt be a role model to you. Please dont speak for us in which you are in a bad habit of dictating other peoples religion. you have our beliefs are you have yours.
Rome wrote: false hadith? It has been included as one of the most authentic, what you on about? The hadiths were already arranged, some where rejected some were accepted, the hadith I happened to Quote was accepted as authentic.
al-Bukhari is regarded as the second holiest book in Sunni Islam and you reject it?
Have you just noticed the contradictions in your hadiths? Man you got to wake up, You say I am the camatose?
Rome, you are soo late. Want to go to the first thread I started on months ago in which I have stated numerous time that hadeeths contradict each other muchless the Quran ?
Anyhow. Hope fully Webby got the forum fixed. The hadith contradict this verse of the Quran.
By degrees shall We teach thee to declare (the Message), so thou shalt not forget, 87:6
This is what I meant. Sorry last time I tried to post the Quran itself this forum googled it.
Ahdeeth collection of Bukhari and Muslims were not tested by the Quran. They are conditioned as sahih based on the unbroken chain of the transmission that they could find to the best of their abilities.
Rome wrote:That fact is that state that you speak of is a secular state, respect it and its laws if you wish to live in it
Do you respect the law of gay people can get married ? And the law of abortion ? You couldnt possible agree with it right ? How could you respect something that Allah is displeased with ? Now, I may not respect it as to my disagreement with it. Pleanty of non Muslim American who dont respect ie disagree or degrade such laws. But what do we do ? We just continue with our lives shunning such people who practice hidious things. So please dont tell us to respect law that Allahhimself does not respect.
Does Allah respect gay marriage, abortion, stip clubs, porno, fornicationor adultry ?
Rome wrote:Then you admit Islam can be compared to the brutal pagan Romans?
No. When last did you read the Torah ? Non Jews living in a Jewish land also had to pay taxes to such state.
Now what happen to what you said "That fact is that state that you speak of is a secular state, respect it and its laws if you wish to live in it" The same goes for Christians wanting to live in a muslims country.
But dont get me wrong now, America has a right if it wanted us out then we should leave. I would have no problem in doing that.
Rome wrote:When I said come, I was speaking in general. I do know there are procedures, at least you have the ability to build one even though it takes you time.
If there we no laws and the Christian voice was the law we would have no masaajid in the US nore in the UK. It is the Atheist laws that protect us
bidznillah from Christian ambition. Let me remind you before the 1st amendment NO mosque could be built on Chritian ground.
Rome wrote:those people on the Jerry Springer show are FREE to act in anyway they desire, at the end of the day God is going to judge them. What good is it to FORCE people to be what they are not? and do what they do not want to do?
Sowhat was the purpose of the Torah in which Allah had moses inforce onto the people ?
For example in Iran women must cover there heads, what is the point of them doing this if its not from the heart? By the way this law also applies to all non muslims! What happened in Afghanistan after they were freed?
Most of the women removed the "body bags" they where FORCED to wear.
If she lives in that country she should adhear to public law or leave. Again, we get into another issue of why women should dress properly and cover their beauty. Christianity in the past in these countries inforced such a thing of morals , ethics, respect. Being that Christians fell away from what was suppose to be inforced to secure the godlines of a country it fell right into that hand of the Atheist that took all of that away. Now look at America and the UK. They are acting just like those past nation that Allah distroyed. Look how these countries EXPLOIT women now. Look at the family house hold now. Look how rude children are now. Look how women dress now.
Rome wrote:Forgive me for not shedding a tear for you muslims. Instead I will shed a tear for those Sudanese Christians that are getting butchered and those Christians in Indonesia and throughout the world
.
Dont, we wont for you. It is in your nature as a Christian to yearn for your brothers and sister whom Unjustice is being done to. The same for my self, I yearn when I hear the State of the Palestinians or any of my brothers and sisters that are being oppressed
Rome wrote:Who is blowing up Churches in Iraq today?
If there were not secular and Christianity ruled what do you think they would do to our masaajid ?
Rome wrote:What about Theo van Gogh who was stabbed and shot by a muslim?
Just becuase of a film that spoke against Islam regarding the treatment of women.
These muslims are more animalish then those immoral people on Jerry Springer, dont you think?
I would agree to the unjust way some our women are being treated in the east. They are deprived of islam law ans are rules by cultural, nationalistic, and tribalistic customs that against Quran and Sunnah.
I was not ticked off about that. as a matter of fact that Arab felt he insulted his people. The same a black person would do if a film maker made a film that degraded black women. A black American would be moved to want to kill such a person.
I dont think it was a matter of religion persay that was his motive of killing him. I think it was much more personal that insulted his people.
Now, other than that, I screamed when I heard what he did with the Quran that had me burning up to th point I thought he had deserved every spark he got. Again what does the Quran say about such a thing:
When thou seest men engaged in vain discourse about Our Signs, turn away from them unless they turn to a different theme. If Satan ever makes thee forget, then after recollection, sit not thou in the company of those who do wrong. 6:68
I have my self countless times violated this ayah based on forgetfulness and allowing emotions and feelings to take control.
Rome wrote:You have failed to prove that the Quran is complete
.
Now we have not. You presented source that we counteracted. I think we should leave our audience to think for them selves as to this rahter than have you and I claiming we did this or that.
Rome wrote:No, I actually mean 99% of muslims, not some.
Your percentage is a way off also.
Rome wrote:Muslims can? oh I forgot they rememberd the Quran by heart. I hope they didnt have a memory like Mohammed who forgot parts of surahs.
Ehm !
By degrees shall We teach thee to declare (the Message), so thou shalt not forget, 87:6
Thats what the Quran says making the hadeeth statement FALSE.
Rome wrote:I am not the one that assembled the hadiths into a book, so do not ask me why I picked this certain hadith, ask whoever put it in the book in the first place. I can get you random contradictions and things that are out of this world from the hadiths.
You picked them from a website you read. It was based on your findings but the findings of another.
Rome wrote:Why have you favoured the ones that are opposite? Because without the Quran your deen (religion) is nothing, and you know this.
If a hadeeth reports something that does not conflict with Quran but another hadeeth. We have to weigh the evidence based on the majority of reports from different people. If hadeeth A contradicts hadeeth B and C, E, F, G ahadeeth back confirms B then A is rejected.
IF any of the Hadeeth contradict Quran they are automatically rejected.
This is how we are to decide what hadeeth are good and what are not. YOU ALL HAVE NO SYSTEM TO CHOOSE we do, in which you are free to choose what you like to support your criticism.
Rome wrote:In one of the six most authentic Hadith books by Ibne Maja we find a parable told by Hazrat AyshaR, in which she says:
"The aa'yaa on rape and nursing of babies were lying in book form, that was kept in the patio. When the Holy Messenger passed away, we became busy in his funeral. During this time, our domesticated pet goat ate the manuscript of these two aa'yaa. And so these aa'yaa were wasted."
It seems the part the goat ate from the Quran was the only "copy".
And again where are other ahadeeth mentioned that confirm this hadeeth from different people that such a verse was eaten up.
H2O wrote:Do you actually read what you type? you are admitting that your hadiths are useless, a bunch of contradictions. I am using hadiths to support my view that the Quran is incomplete and you are choosing to ignore these hadiths and reject them simply because you cannot accept that your Quran is not all present.
I am cautious of hadeeth, I dont trust them until they have cleard examination of the Quran and verified with other hadeeths. I wasnt admitting that they are useless. They are usless if they cannot be confirmed by Quran or other hadeeths. If they contradict the Quran they are automatically reject being they are Sahih or not. Again, ahadeeth is not the divine word of Allah on the Quran is. Some muslims follow this path some muslim do not thinking the Imam's were error free.