Christian/Muslim ThreadsChristianity: Man-Made Religion; Islam: Divine Principle. :: replyreply Well usually this statement comes from a Christian, but perhaps this time its really because "the bible says so"? God blessed Ishmael according to the Bible, the firstborn son of Abraham, the son which Abraham loved MORE than Isaac, the son who was circumsized according to God's commandment, the son which was given a "great nation" unlike any other son except Isaac, and because God promised that from among the descendants of his from Mount Paran there was to be a Holy One with a thousand saints and a fiery law. And why didn't God bless any of his other sons? Is this a statement according to Jesus or according to Paul? Since this was a statement of Paul, what can we expect from the man who claimed to be an apostle sent to gentiles? Prove this according to the words of Jesus. I have never heard of this Christian Nation from the Bible. Can you prove from the words of Jesus and the prophets? Wait, in heaven I thought Jesus was God. Why doesnt Jesus just sit on the thrown, why the right side? Is he seperate from God even in heaven? Because I don't believe that God would set Himself up in a trap .... when God created Adam and Eve who he gave free will, God in His infinite wisdom and knowledge knew of what they and their progeny would do, and that is sin, and thus by creating man, he would haev basically set Himself up for no reason; however this is not the case. God set up a life of trials and tribulations and gave man a purpose. My point was that why didn't God come as Moses and as David, why send prophets? It doesn't make sense as to why He would send prophets when He would and could come down Himself. "(God) Who only has immortality, dwelling, in the light of which no man can approach unto; whom no man has seen, nor can see, to whom be the honor and power everlasting." (Timothy 6:16) "No man has seen God at any time." (John 1:18) "You have neither heard His voice at any time nor seen His shape." (John 5:37) Is God capable? God is capable of anything, but His purpose for us does not need it, nor does He in all his glory need to do such a thing considering His purpose for us and His message to us. While these may be elements of our purpose, the basic and fundemental purpose of our existance is submission to God and His will - basically trusting and loving God, doing what He wants us to do and putting faith in Him and His mercy which leads one to a righteous life and bring us to be merciful towards our fellow man as well. What we do IS IMPORTANT, because our actions speak for who we are, our actions and deeds determine if our faith and love and trust in God is true or if its hypocrisy. Do you agree? Don't you agree? Good deeds make a person better and more righteous. Don't you agree that God wants us to do good deeds and be righteous? Or does it not matter? Anyone who says they have faith in God should be able to perform good in their lives, at least more good than bad. Then so does Judeo-Christianity: James 2:14-26 What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness"; and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. This paragraph from James, brother of Jesus, shows exactly what the Islamic perspective is. Oh, so defending oneself and struggling in the cause of God to survive and safeguard the message of God is not okay for Muslims in the time of Mohammed, yet its okay for the Jews? Oh, so God was once regressive and later changed and abrogated His previous actions? So where is the Holy Spirit doing all that cool stuff today? _____________________________ Peace Beads, No, its not about what the religion says which makes it man-made, its about how the religions were developed, formed, labeled, and institutionalized, which makes them man-made. My objection was towards the the words "Christianity" and "Judaism" which are labeled not as divine principles but as man-made religions. I am making a distinction between the divine principle of submission to God and man made religions "Christianity" and Judaism. I don't disagree with what the prophets taught, much which is infact contained with the man-created Bible which you believe in. As far as what Christianity teaches, it seems to me that it teaches that one must put faith in a symbolic event - ie the crucifixtion and death of Jesus Christ on the cross, in order to be saved. If this is so, then Christianity is based on a symbolic event. On the contrary, Mohammed like Jesus did infact teach the he (Mohammed) was the way, the truth and the light, and failure to accept him as a prophet and the message he brought, that there was no other way to God. Every time a prophet was sent one HAD to accept him and his message in order reach God. Without accepting Moses and what he taught the Pagans could never reach the divine God that exists. Similarly we must believe that Mohammed like Jesus and Moses in their respective times, is the way the truth and light. That's why our declaration of faith is 1. To believe that there is ONE GOD, and 2. To declare that Mohammed is the Messenger of God, who brought to man the Message of God. This is how Mohammed like Jesus is the way and truth and light. Exactly, Jesus was not the founder of any religion, and He was the way, just as any prophet was the way for their respective people to reach God. Exactly, thats why I believe Christianity is man-made and that all prophets including Jesus followed the divine principle of submission to God. The Bible never calls Christianity anything. Everything else is created to automatically submit to the will of God, for example, God tells it to rain, it rains. Man on the other hand as a choice to submit or not to submit, this is why God says "there is no compulsion" when it comes to man and submission. Everything else is created to automatically submit to God's commands. Nothing in the heavens and the earth happens, except through the will of God. You yourself have proven that Christianity couldn't have been around before Jesus, and infact it wasn't even around "since" Jesus, rather several years after Jesus. Yes. Good, so we agree that islam has always existed. The Quran contains the will of God through inscription. How can we submit to God without knowing His will? Thus we have the Quran to understand what the will of God is, meaning what God wants from us. Actually it is a symbolic event, otherwise how can the death of someone on a cross take away the evil and sins of trillions of people from trillions of generations? If its not symbolic then what is it? Why put faith in Jesus, why not put faith in God and His mercy of forgiving? God forgives those who believe in Him and trust Him. Agreed. However when you say the Bible you should say the New Testament, because you don't follow the Old Testament, but only regard it as a historic document and not as a source to follow. No, submission not to ones own desires and temtations rather to the will of God. This is what a Muslim (submitter) and Momin (believer) is. The works that God wants you to do in the Old Testament are for righteouness as are the works which the Quran tells you to do. But if you want to debate the authenticity of the "Bible" and whether this "Bible is even the word of God, then I am willing to. You can do the same critique with the Quran. Want to start another thread on this topic? The word Bible means compiled books. If I compile multiple cook books or multiple fairy tale books together, then I can call it a Bible. Why should I believe in the canonized "Bible" which was canonized and called the "authorized version" by an individual who had no divine authority? Which Bible do you expect me to believe in and why? I believe that God revealed Himself to Abraham, Moses, Noah, Jesus and all of the prophets, so whatever part of the Bible that is infact "inspired" by what God and the prophets did and said, I believe in. I have reason to believe that the Quran is infact the word and revelation of God which was promised by God to be preserved and safeguarded. For God said: "This day I have perfected for you your way/religion and completed my favor on you. I have chosen for you Islam as your way/deen/religion (5:3) The Quran is infact a miracle in itself, and is the perfection and completion of what God had ordained for man. It contains for man His purpose, it contains the original message, preserved by God, and it was revealed to Mohammed 1400 years ago in the midst of the deserts of Arabia to an illiterate man who was able to survive the pagans who seeked to kill him, and was able to produce scripture that even the greatest poets of Arabia could not master. The poetry in which the Quran is written (in the Arabi language) is distinct from every literature that existed. Its message, when read is so deep, to think that a man 1400 years ago could forge such scripture is unbelievable. I believe that if God exists, He would sent to us a perfect message without any flaw so that we can follow it, read it, understant it, and live life according to it. Since the chosen ones rebelled, God established His deen and perfected it so that man could follow it. I don't believe that God would allow this man to spread falsehood about Him (see deut 18:20 about false prophets). For Mohammed was threatened by thousands of pagans in the midst of the desert, he was mocked, sentanced to death, beaten, abused, yet he and his message survived and succeeded. This is why I think that the Quran, the greatest miracle, is the word and revelation and message of God. Why wait 200 years later? Why not in the time of Jesus? John? Matthew? Or I guess Moses and David were more special? I must have missed it, I shall review.... I an agree, but with Christianity, the very institution and labeling of is man-made unlike with Islam. Oh really? What about the apocrypha, Gospel of Thomas, Gospel of Mary Book of Enoch, etc. etc. Is God the author of these books as well? |
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