Christian/Muslim ThreadsChristianity: Man-Made Religion; Islam: Divine Principle.And why is this the point you're trying to make? Because they don't agree with what the Quran and Islam teaches? Well, guess what? I say the same thing about Islam because it doesn't agree with what the Bible teaches. Yes, I agree. But what makes you say that the way of life prescribed by the prophets and God Himself is not what is recorded in the Bible? If it's because you think it's silly to believe in a symbol, then you do not understand at all what the Bible teaches. As I recall, Jesus' message was "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but by me." That's hardly the same thing that Mohammed taught. As a side note, isn't it interesting that Jesus said "I am the Way" instead of "I am the Religion"? Jesus never claimed to be the founder of Christianity, either. So? The Bible never calls Christianity a religion rather a way (see the quote from Jesus above), too. Submission can only be limited to mankind because nothing else has a choice. If something has no choice but to follow orders, how can you call that submission? Man can choose to disobey; nothing else can. Therefore, only man can choose to submit. Christianity and Christian are meant to be descriptive words also. If a call someone a Christian, it is not to put them into a group. It is because their lifestyle and their words portray what the Bible teaches. "Islam is the only religion...." I thought you were trying to prove that Islam wasn't a religion. Probably just a freudian slip. Anyway..... Why do you think that Christianity can't claim such? If it couldn't, then why would the Christian Bible contain the OT? If Christianity has only been around since Jesus, why would anything written before that be included in the Bible? And when you say "islam" here, you mean the concept of submitting, not the religion of Islam, the extra teachings of the Quran and all that, right? So you're really saying that submission has always existed. Again I can agree with that. The problem lies in the fact that the other things that Islam teaches have not always existed, so Islam (the religion) must be considered man-made. I still think it would be better if you used the term "Submitter" instead of Muslim or Islam, since the concept you are trying to get across (submission) is much different than the teachings that we associate with the word "Islam." But if you don't want to do that, I'll try to keep this in mind. In a nutshell, Christianity teaches that all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. The penalty for our sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ. There is no getting of eternal life apart from Jesus. This is not a belief in a "symbolic event." This is a belief in Jesus, who is God. We agree that submitting to God is glorifying to Him. The thing we disagree on is what God has commanded that we are supposed to submit to. I believe it's the Bible. You believe it's the Quran. So by your definition, a muslim is anyone who submits to anything, right? I submit to the Bible, so I am muslim. You submit to the Quran, so you are muslim. My wife submits to me, so she is muslim. Some guy in a wrestling match yells "uncle" (thereby submitting), so he is a muslim. Alright, then by that catch-all definition, I concede that I am a muslim. It then boils down to which is right, the Bible or the Quran. Or the Book of Mormon, or any other holy book of any other religion for that matter. OK, so you do works to prove that you have faith. How do you know that the works that the Quran tells you to do are the works that God wants you to do? What if God really wants you to do the works that the Bible tells you to do? Why don't you follow the Bible, then? I understand the meaning. The additional revelation I was referring to was not the submission part. I was referring to the rest of the Quran which just tells you stuff that has nothing to do with submission. You believe all that stuff don't you? So you must be following a man-made religion. And again, why don't you follow the Bible? It tells you how to submit to God, too. How do you know that God revealed Himself in the Quran and not the Bible? What makes you believe the Quran is revealed? I suppose God couldn't have had a hand in it to make sure that only the books that He wanted in the Bible got there. Claimed, not proven. The institution and labeling of Christianity is clearly in the Bible, and I have shown it to you. You conveniently forgot to reply to any of those parts of my last post. Rewritten below to more clearly(?) represent what orthodox is trying to say: Hmm... So submission (remember, that's what islam/muslim means) tells us the difference between religion and submission. That's a circular argument. I will agree with you that we have always been meant to submit to God. Can you agree that there is more to Islam than just submitting to God, and that's what makes it every bit as man-made of a religion as Christianity? Ah, but Paul is not the Author. God is. And He knows what He considers to be scripture. What you're missing is that God did not tell these men to write down word for word what He had said to them. He told them what to do, they did it, then later they sat down and wrote down what the Holy Spirit moved them to write, just as the verse I quoted said ("holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.") |
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