BISMILLAHIRRAHMAANIRRAHIIM

peace..peace

Before I continue, I just want people to know here. We Muslims has the criterias how to be admitted as a Mufassirin

The mufassir must:
Be sound in belief ('aqîda).

1. Well-grounded in the knowledge of Arabic and its rules as a language.

2. Well-grounded in other sciences that are connected with the study of the Qur'ân (e.g. 'ilm al-riwâya).

3. Have the ability for precise comprehension.

4. Abstain from the use of mere opinion.

5. Begin the tafsîr of the Qur'ân with the Qur'ân.

6. Seek guidance from the words and explanations of the Prophet.

7. Refer to the reports from the sahâba.

8. Consider the reports from the tâbicûn.

9. Consult the opinions of other eminent scholars.
====================
None of those passed by Apple pie, and the worst of all he said "WHO CARES !!" which is a word he likes so much in his debate or dialog.
======

Better not complain about things called "CUT and PASTE" because YOU also CUT and PASTE from the references above.

The references that we use are ones that we own.

Do you think that's cool? The references I have are my own and other's.
You don't let other people see what you have. How can people know that you cheat them?

These would be the ones that you know nothing about….because you do not take your study of the Koran seriously.

At least I know that Basmalah Attach on each surah but surah 9. How about you Apple? You talk about surah 81 but you don't understand the knowledge about it. Are you sure you know what you are doing?

Your “references” on the other hand, are merely “ones” that you happen to find on the web after a 5 minute “google-job”…nothing more.

Are you scared because tons of people out there smarter than you? I know you don't like google because people can easy find the answer. Google is amazing isn't it. A giga library. I can find tafsir Ibn Katsir and other thing without buying. Dear Apple Pie, Ibn Katsir is way better than you. You compalin or protest, then show your quality in this forum that you are better than him.
With google, people can see my references. You, you hide your references. So people can't critisize you when you made mistake.
Having your own CD ROM doesn't mean you are smart Apple.

My main references will be:
1. Tafsir ibn katsir (abridge) vol 10
2. The Holy Quran, Arabic Text with English Translation, Commentary and comprehensive Introduction by Maulana Muhammad Ali
3. Commentary for Quran - In the Shade of the Qur'an - by Syed Qutb
4. The Message of The Quran by Muhammad Asad
5. Maududi's introduction of the surahs
6. Other web-sites to support the arguments.

I'm trying avoid the "OPPINION" since we are talking about the "SCIENCE OF SURAHS / VERSES". For this I rely on the Famous Islamic Scholars especialy in the science of AL-Qur'an.
Al-Qur'an can't be separated by history because it was formed through the history Prophet's life.

Hence….you use nothing but web-based material that you can “google” in 5 minutes (or less)……right?

Yes. Then why? are you scared

Further, none of your sources actually reference the classical lexical meanings nor the etymologies of the words in question.

And nothing of your references backed-up by historical record. that's lame, lame, lame. You proclaim about the original script but you can't tell people about how the DICTATE THEORY happened.
E.W. Lane Doesn't prove himself as a high quality one. He doesn't know about "SHE CAMEL" in Arabic. He failed about the word ISRA in verse 4.

Your position rests solely upon opinion with no objective way to back it up.

Don't you realize that you are in SUBJECTIVE TRACK right now? Where is you OBJECTIVE arguments. This is the first time I see people talk objective by sayin "WHO CARES !!".
Islamic scholars are people who learn. Even some time they use IJTIHAD, but all coming after the learned. You, claim everything before learn.

OVER ALL REFUTATION.

IMPOSIBIBLITY FOR DICTATED THEORY no 1.

Surah AT_TAKWIR or surah 81 was EXISTED or revealed in Mecca.

Who cares when the sura was supposedly penned?

That's it ladies and gentlemen, his favorite word. This guy is so scared when we come to the historical discussion.

There are no “originals” of this sura in existence in the first place.

Do you have the original script ever written from the mouth of Jesus? Please show us.

There are no HISTORICAL RECORD that Muhammad (saw) learned NT from anybody, and no evidences that Prophet(saw) read any Bible or write the verses of it. Such acusation must be followed by historical record. Unless, all will turned up to wishful thinking.

Again….who cares if Islam’s so called “prophet” wrote the sura?! :roll:

Yap! the second WHO CARES.
Then, where are those surah came from? tell me the history of them. I can tell you about it. Can you?
Wait. I know what you will say....WHO CARES !! haha

He obviously did not…as the earliest fragmented COPIES of the Koran only surfaced 100 years after his supposed life and times.

You are grasping at straws…

Then tell it to forum about it completely. I am so EAGER to know it. Can you?

IMPOSIBIBLITY FOR DICTATED THEORY no 2.
There are 2 groups explaining about Judgement day. Group one, telling the DOOMS day, and Group 2 the Resurrection. And there are nothing paralel to the Revelation 6.

Surah 81 together with 82 are talking about The end of days and the Day of Judgement.

In the first six verses the first stage of the Resurrection
1.When the sun is Kuwwirat.
2. And when the stars Inkadarat.
3. And when the mountains are made to pass away;
4. And when the pregnant she-camels are neglected;
5. And when the wild beasts are gathered together.
6. And when the seas become as blazing fire.

This kind of thinking is missed by Apple Pie. Those are all talking about the disaster or the dooms day of the world. That will be the FIRST STAGE of the Judgement day.

Then in the next seven verses the second stage

7. And when the souls are joined with their mates.
8. And when the female infant (Al-Maw'udah) buried alive is questioned (Su'ilat):
9. For what sin was she killed
10. And when the pages are laid open.
11. And when the heaven is Kushitat;
12. And when Hell is Su`irat.
13. And when Paradise is brought near.

Those are all what will happen after the DOOMS. We are no more in this world.
That's the SECOND STAGE of the Judgement day. Those are all about outside of our world.

This is all Book of Revelation material as we have detailed in our exegesis.

You show…..absolutely nothing to refute it.

In fact….you can’t even begin to refute our exegesis….not even one single solitary ayah of it…lol….

Why do you keep running away from this fact?

And don't you the one who run by saying "WHO CARES !!"?. That word show us that you are SPEECHLESS.
Can we rely on E.W. Lane, Not really. Can you give me his biography so I can compare it to Ibn Katsir. Can you?

If you disagree with the reasoning behind our exegesis, then directly show your “argument” against it.

Quit stalling for more “google” time.

This guy is scared of google.
I just want you all people know that exegesis is only ONE component to interpret Al-Qur'an. There are more criterias to make it WELL-DONE. EXEGESIS with stand alone, can't be consider finish.

On the 7th verse Apple Pie relates it with
Quote:
χαιρωμεν και αγαλλιωμεθα και δωμεν την δοξαν αυτω οτι ηλθεν ο γαμος του αρνιου και η γυνη αυτου ητοιμασεν εαυτην

cairwmen kai agalliwmen kai | dwsomen | dwswmen | thn doxan autw oti hlqen o gamos tou arniou kai h gunh autou htoimasen eauthn

Rev 19.7 Let us rejoice and let us exult, and we will give glory to Him, because the marriage of the Lamb came, and His wife prepared herself.

και εδοθη αυτη ινα περιβαληται βυσσινον καθαρον και λαμπρον το γαρ βυσσινον τα δικαιωματα εστιν των αγιων

kai edoqh auth ina peribalhtai bussinon lampron kaqaron to gar bussinon ta dikaiwmata twn agiwn estin

Rev 19.8 And it was given to her that she be clothed in fine linen, pure and bright; for the fine linen is the righteousnesses of the saints.


Those are all nothing to do with the Resurrection which is consists of 7,8,9,10,11,12,13. The stories are not paralel.

It was caught that Apple Pie did not understand about surah At-Takwir it self, which is one of famous surahs explaining about what will happen on the judgement days.

Care to explain your reasoning with an exegesis of the original languages…?

I rely on the Scholars of Al-Qur'an for that.
Don't you rely on E.W. Lane and Abdul Mannan Omar for that?
So we rely on the scholars. Why complain?
Can you convince us that you graduated from LEXICON someting school? Prove it.

Or….do you just want to continue to surf the web for a quickie answer….like usual….?

Hmm..I think you can surf faster if you have a CD ROM. Cut and paste from CD ROM is much faster.

SUrah 82:1-4 much related to 81
082.001
YUSUFALI: When the Sky is cleft asunder;
082.002
YUSUFALI: When the Stars are scattered;
082.003
YUSUFALI: When the Oceans are suffered to burst forth;
082.004
YUSUFALI: And when the Graves are turned upside down;-

Wow….Yusuf Ali is really going to help you out…. :roll:

Yes of course. I learn about Islam, but I am not so arogant by saying I know everything. Why do we have to pretend that we know all? You can use E.W. Lane, why can I use what I want? are you saying E.W. Lane better that Yusuf Ali or Ibn Katsir? ok then, tell me more about E.W. Lane.

Surah 082.009 , tells you all about it.
SHAKIR: Nay! but you give the lie to the judgment day,

So surah 81 and 82, related.

Of course they are….as they were both copied from the Book of Revelation.

This guy is proclaiming he is the winner before even close to finish line

nothing weird about verse 1,2,and 3.

Wow….yet another amazing tafsir on your part….

I mean, I argue nothing about your exegesis thing.

Now about verse 4.
That's why you have to learn from the Mufassirin.
the word ISHAR is PLURAL of ishra (from the root ‘ashr meaning ten).
MEaning, And when the pregnant she camels are neglected Can be translated as a shecamel that has been ten months pregnant

Supported by:
Quote:
http://www.balagh.net/english/quran/light/081/01-09.htm
And when the pregnant camels shall be neglected

The word /ishar/ is the plural form of /ishra/ and basically means 'she-camel ten months with young', which is just about to be delivered of her young.


YUSUFALI: When the she-camels, ten months with young, are left untended
Explained by Maulana M Ali:
Bearing on this subject is a hadith of the Prophet: “The camels will be abandoned so that they will not be used for going swiftly (from one place to another)”

this surah explaining the judgement day. This explanation describe the horror of it.

Remember how the PREGNANT camel is a most valuable thing in time or Prophet(saw).

So Surah 4 has nothing to do with Revelation in NT.

What a joke.

You can’t read Arabic.

Nor do you even have a clue what it means.



Summary of 81.4

وَإِذَا الْعِشَارُ عُطِّلَتْ

Wa-itha alAAisharu AAuttilat

81.4 And when the ten and ten abandoned the woman.


• 81.4 begins with “wa-itha”, which is a continuation of the previously known material contained in 81.1 - 81.3, via the copulative conjunction “wa”
• Revelation describes the First Beast rising from the sea, as having “deka” “keras”, or ten horns, with “deka” “diadema”, or ten diadems (crowns), on the horns…or ten horns and ten crowns
• 81.4 tells us of “alAAisharu”, or “ten and ten; or ten and ten together; or ten at a time and ten at a time”
• “alAAisharu” is termed as an epithet…which is used to describe the nature of a thing
• The ten and ten is used as corroboration, i.e. to support with evidence in order to make more certain
• Revelation also tells that a “gune”, or woman, is riding this First Beast from the sea
• Further, Revelation informs us that this woman is initially “periballo”, or bedecked, with all manner of garments and “chrusoo”, or ornaments
• Revelation tells us that this woman becomes “eremoo”, or desolate of her vast possessions, and “gumnos”, or naked (unclad)
• 81.4 tells us that “uttilat” also refers to a woman
• “Uttilat” describes this woman as “she had not upon her any woman’s ornaments; and wore not any ornature, or decoration: or her neck was destitute of necklaces or the like.”
• Further, the root “atila” informs us that this woman becomes denuded, unclad, or naked
• Amazingly, the description in 81.4 is the very same one as described in the Book of Revelation, and represents the Woman (i.e. Babylon the Great, the City of man) as she is riding the First Beast (i.e. the devil), and has come to her own destruction



81.4 has nothing to do with “pregnant camels”……come on…..do your homework.

You are making yourself out to be a fool.


Put some “googled” effort into your “rebuttals”…

[/quote]

You use this one:
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar

I will use this one:
The Easy Dictionary of the Qur’aan, Compiled By Shaikh AbdulKarim Parekh Translated By (Late) AbdurRasheed Kamptee Dr. Abdulazeez Abdulraheem Shaikh AbdulGhafoor Parekh .

But I will let people to see it together. Please download:
http://www.emuslim.com/Quran/Dictionary ... /set-8.pdf



You use Dictionary of Al-Qur'an I use Dictionary of Al-Qur'an

We are even.

Ok Reply this first.

Salaam
Gosh!! I love google.