Hi everyone....
Sorry folks... been really busy... boss is really turning into a royal pain in the butt... anyways...
The Bible... (2 parts... )
Part 1 : the original word... the message given by God to His Prophets..... Technically speaking... none of the Prophets actually sat down to write a book or were given a book per se of heavenly origin... everything was sort of like inspired in them... depending on the person... for some it was like a trance mode thingie... others... it was like how 2 people talk.. .and yet others... was like a dream like system... When a muslim says the Prophets were sent with books it doesnt mean "book" ... it means the communications, the laws, the rituals, and other stuff said by the Prophet to the people... eg. when Abraham said all must be circumsised... this is part of his "book" ... which he recieved from God... or ... when Jesus said "blessed are the peacemakers... " that is part of his book which he recieved from God........ This is what a muslim refers to "The Books sent to Prophets of God" These books are divine.. holy... heavenly etc... no one will find fault with it.... if one does... well that person is mistaken...
Part 2 : The bible we have today in our midst... as we all know it...
These 66 / 72 chapters of the Bible the christian considers as the Holy book... First of all there is a difference of opinion on hte exact contents of it (is it 66 or 72)... but that is immaterial at this moment... This Book is the actual writting down of the deeds, saying, conversations, acts, happening, history etc.. of people and their Prophets.. written by non-Prophet holy persons (sort of like priests)... for instance when Luke was writing his Gospel ... he was writing what he remembered of the events he learnt of by the other apostles... or he was divinly inspired to write it.. without the help of the other apostles (the actual method is of no importance at this point)...
However these books were under constant revision... for instance the moment the actual Bible was formed is sometime during the 325AD council... prior to that time there was no 1 book called the Bible... everyone had copies of different documents said to be holy scripture.. Some prefered Luke, some John some Mark some shepard of Hermes or some prefered some of the other aprophicial books (which coincidently the council and later the catholic church prefered not to put in circulation)....
Now ... something different.... i hope everyone here is familiar with linux or at least heard of it... now the way it works is like this... Red Hat co came out with a version of linux and gave it to the public to use including the source code i.e the original program in text form... along with the clause that anyone can do as they like with the software/ source code combination... but if the people change any of the stuff in the code ... say ... make the installation system simplier... then this new modified version will not be called red hat linux any more but will be known as faia's linux (since i changed it) Henceforth red hat will have no link whatsoever with this new system and the name red hat will be removed all together... now technically speaking it still is the same with some modifications for easier usability but its not red hat anymore.... same goes for the word of God... God says 1, 2, 3.... some one writes it down as I, II, III ... the meaning is the same between the two it isnt the actual word of God. its different... ( Now i am not bringing up the issue of different translations... thats not my point... i am just showing that what God spoke via the Prophet and what people wrote ... well unless and until its verbatim its different... ofcourse the same rule can be applied to the Quran as well... thats why its still in its original language revealed 1400 odd years ago... the difference being that it wasnt actually compiled into book form until (from a historical point of view) the 2nd chaliph or atleast until the death of Prophet Muhammed.... and there are a lot of hadiths which point to missing text or changed text and other like stuff... but to answer this one has to also know that from a historical point of view the leaders after the Prophet (except for a few) were "anti-Prophet" so to speak... their whole setup was to do as they like n please etc... hence the text to undermne the authenticity of the Quran... for instance i dont know if anyone of you is familiar with post Prophet Muhammed history... but right after his death ... the supposed to be next in line person called Ali actually spent the next 6 months compiling the whole of Quran in book form.. and when it was done and taken to the "leader" it was rejected on some trivial insignificnt issue.. This Ali after the Prophet was the only one at that point in time who was divinely guided and taught n raised by the Prophet himself...
I seem to have gone way off topic here... back to topic...
The Bible we have to day in my own view ... well i wont say its unholy but a more appropriate word would be non-holy book... yes it does contain words of God... yes it does contain deeds of Prophets gone by.. but yes it also contains views of the persons who wrote those passages / chapters / books... and it does reflect their political, sociological, mental, etc views...
So yes the Bible is a book of guidance but not everything in it is to be taken in an absolute manner... or as people say with a grain of salt.
Beads: Hi....
The books that were written by Moses, David, Jesus, and Muhammed are considered holy by muslims? Or are the books written by Moses, David and Jesus now considered unholy since they are lumped in together with Paul's books?
Not exactly... Just because its "lumped" with pauls books doesnt make it unholy... every book has its own place... and its own authenticity and its own value...
Also, Moses only wrote Gen, Ex, Lev, Num, and Deut. David only wrote some stuff in Psalms, as far as I know. Jesus didn't write anything, although his life was recorded by 4 people. And Muhammed wrote whole the Quran, right? So, am I right in thinking that you regard only these 11 books as holy (portions of the OT, portions of the NT although not written by Jesus himself, and the whole Quran)?
its not that simple... its not a black n white system.... either this or that.. My view... none of the Prophets wrote their books.. it was revealed to them... and their followers wrote it down... or memorised it as in the case of pre-writting tools days... Prophet Muhammed didnt per se write a book either... he recieved and relayed it to the people and ordered his scribes to write it down, but more importantly he made them memorise it... every single word... every single comma, full stop etc...
Believer: Hi there...
You're letting one biased teacher put absolutely illogical baseless anti-Paul junk in your mind. Paul was a very devout Jew.
Just because he could speak Greek didn't mean he was a Greco-Roman pagan.
You can speak English, does that means you are a Christian? Do you see how very illogical such assumptions are?
Paul didn't add anything to the Christian doctrine.
I can show you refernces to the SOn of God and Holy Spirit in Jewish scriptures, so the idea of the Trinity as being an imported belief is not realistic.
One of the questions i have always asked non-christains is what was pauls motivation behind the changing of scriptures... if there was one... and to be honest i have yet to recieve a reasonable reply... but to me based on my own understanding ... yes paul did change certain things to benifit his cause... however i am sure this is not the place to discuss this...
Another question, the Gospel tecahes us to love our enemies as ourselves and that marriage is only between ONe man and ONE woman, and that when a divorcee remaries, that is likened to adultery.
Jesus even spared adulteresses from stonings.
Why does the Quran regress from the Gospels?
Why does Muhammed fail pathetically to live up to Christ and His teachings and still be a superceding prophet?
I dont think you can compare 2 Prophets... every one came for a different reason... a different people ... a different time... to say that Jesus is better than Moses or to say that Moses os better than Abraham or that Solomon is better than David etc... is illogical...everyone came and fulfilled his responsibility... for instance Moses fought back against the egyptians... Jesus didnt... does that mean Jesus is better???? in that case M.K. Gandhi ( from pre-independence india) is much better than Moses coz he too believed in non-violence... or even Nelson Mandela... etc.. also the reason you say this is because of western influence... where human rights is the buzz word.... if a person speaks up... he is automatically called an anti social person... true violence is not the way... but where does the slapping of the other cheek stop??? if a person were to break into your home and robbed you... maybe even beat you up... would you say "peace my friend... take what you need... and beat me up some more"... i doubt it.. there is a limit to tolerance of injustice... ofcourse the highest reward is for that person who would say take what you want n beat me up sum more... but is it practical??? its called self-defence... Just because Prophet Muhammed fought back against the unbelievers doesnt make him a bad guy... one other thing... when Jesus had gone to the temple in Jerusalem... and threw out all the shopkeepers n money changers and all that other non-holy people out... do you think he just went in and said "ok you guys... LEAVE"... no... Judging from that period and the people there must have been atleast in the hundreds if not thousands of people buying and selling ... to throw out all these persons takes either a supernatural force or an army... If it was a supernatural event... howcome its not mentioned... all thats said is He got a whip and threw out all the persons from there... my bet is on that Jesus had at least 30-40 persons with him to do this...
Karaite: Hi ... how are you??? sorry havent been able to respond to your posts lately... been really tied up... anyways..
Muslims came up with this "infallibility" doctrine, claiming that ALL the prophets were sinless, and therefore, taking away from the Messiah's own sinless life -- making him but another prophet.
let me ask you a question... except for Jesus none of the previous Prophets were infallible... meaning they could and did do mistakes... no problem... but then that brings up a big question... what they said or did... was it right or wrong??? When Abraham said circumsize... was he making a mistake??? coz if he can make one mistake then obviously he can make 2 or 3 or 100... where does it stop? which parts of what he said are true and which are not? when Isaiah spoke of the comming of Jesus... was he making a mistake? coz well he too can make mistakes.... he is not free from error... did he make a mistake in the prophecy regarding Jesus??? You see the logical view would be if a person can commit one ... just one mistake then he is capable of making more... if he is error prone ... well ... then he isnt reliable... if he isnt reliable... then what sort of person did God choose to deliever His message???? then you start doubting the judgment of God and how He can pick a person who makes mistakes to deliever His message?????? and when one doubts God... well we all know where that ends... hehe...i havent spoken to a lot of persons here but you... you are a reasonable person... i hope you understand what i am trying to say.... anyways...
btw some one mentioned praying 5 times a day facing Mecca is not pratical... Beads: how many times a day do you remember God?? 1,2,10, 15, 50?? but i will tell you this... how many of this 50 times is done when it is convinent and how many times when its inconvienent??? 50 to 0 i am sure... dont you think God deserves more than that??? after all He made you... you owe Him your life... your very existance... and in response you say "well i dont have time now... i'll thank you Lord when i am more free" ... it is very difficult for a person to even do one job which takes 1 minute once a day everyday religiously... eg... lets say you say "I will thank God for all the bounties everyday for the rest of my life come whatever hail rain storm lighting etc ...whatever.. at exactly 9:03 am... every single day" will you be able to do it? not 9:04 not 9:02 and definately not 9:03:01 am... has to be 9:03:00 .... i tried something llike this... i couldnt... its impossible... technically speaking we should devte our whole lives for God. period. singing praises and thanks and repentance etc..24x7... because God deserves this and more.... and we are unworthy of His glory... right??? Yet He gives us all these bounties etc... and we cant even find the time to thank Him?? C'mon... everyone has time when he is free from all worldly matters... i mean even bill gates has a minute every day to thank God... but its at his own convience... Going out of ones way for God... now thats where the real money is...
Anyway .. now im way behind my schedule.... have to get back to work... catch ya'll later
Ali