Karaite wrote:You know well that there are "other" forged information in there, don't you?
Nope sorry we dont know cause we do not believe the Quran is forged, but we do believe the Quran was revealed by Allah whom revealed the Torah to Moses and the Gospel to Jesus in their ORIGINAL texts in the past which do not EXIST in their ORIGINAL text as how they were ORGINALLY revealed to the holy prophets.
KAraite wrote:And you also know that the Qu'ran does not contain all the information in the Bible, do you?
Vice Versa with the Bible and all other Jewish and Christian sources.
Karaite wrote:So, if iti s not a perfect replica, then it is not on the same level with the supposed source.
Not a replica by forgery but a replica of what was revealed before and then was re-revealed again by Allah plus more. Also the answer to the rest of your statement was given to you in the Quran, I thought you read it before ?
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Surah 3 al-imran
[1] Alif Lam Mim.
[2] Allah! There is no ilah except Him The The Living Self Existing Eternal One.
[3-4] He sent down upon you (Muhammad) The Book/Scripture (The Quran) in truth as a truth verifier/authenticator for whatever is before it [ie at hand of former scriptures, and any religious authority etc.], and He sent down the Torah and the Gospel from before (in the past) as a guidance to the people and He sent down the criterion....
Surah 5 al-Maa'idah
[48] and We sent down to you (Muhammad) The Book/Scripture (The Quran) in truth as a truth verifier/authenticator for whatever is before it [ie at hand of former scriptures, and any religious authority etc.]
from The Book as a Supervisor/Overseer [ie that which determines what is true and what is false] upon it; So Judge (Muhammad) between them (The Jews and the Christians) with what Allah has sent down (to you Muhammad). And do not follow their fancies/low desires inspite of what comes to you (Muhammad) of the truth......
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Karaite wrote:Now, you do know that the Qu'ran claims some stuff that is in the Midrash, and Talmud, which it claims God gave to the Jews, yet the Jews never claimed that this was ever given by God, but were the commentaries of the Rabbis!!! The only source they considered from God, is what they contained in the collections they labeled as the Tanakh, which is Torah, Neviim, and Ketuvim.
Ah interesting. Our veiws on this will split as the so called Torah which now includes the first 5 books, and more were all re-written under the directory of the Sanhedrin after the Babylonian era in which the Kabalah, Midrash and Talmud were a commentary to as you stated that contains HISTORICAL EVENTS and ellaboration by commentors in refernce to the Tanakh [Hmm did you ever read the Kabalah, Midrash, and Talmud for you self ?]. Also the Bible, that contains HISTORICAL EVENTS, makes reference to other books that are not contained in the Bible. Where did these books go to ? Dont you think the Midrash and Talmud also stemed from other missing books on HISTORICAL EVENTS that were not considered soo important to include into the Tanakh ?
At the seige of Jerusalem by the Babylonians they DESTROYED everything including their scriptures. The Babylonian stripped them of everything. They(the Jews) rewrote from
traditional sources in which the Talmud, and Midrash also stemed from those sources in which they seperated. I have a paper on this[ie. the Torah] that I would be more than glad to post, in which I will have to retreave that will take me some time to data enter. And then we can ellaborate on that.
How do you think The Yawist, Elohist, and the Samaritan texts came along ?
The issue you missed is that the Quran is a truth verifier/authenticator for
whatever is before it [ie at hand of former scriptures, and any religious authority etc.] as it is a verification of Historical events that validates such history in Jewish and Christian sources as truths or falsehood which does not constitute them as being revelation as you stipulated, but only as events that did or did not happen or both. (
As you know you say this based on prejudice cause you already believe the bible as being the divine word of G-D and not just a mere book of traditional reports of history)
Karaite wrote:Really? And on whose authority was this done? The fact remains, there is no witness for Mohammed, there is no evidence to support any of his claims about the changes he made.
You have already been given this answer in the Quran. Were you not paying attention ?
Say(Muhammad): "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say(Muhammad): "Allah is witness between me(Muhammad) and you; this Qur-an hath been revealed to me(Muhammad) by inspiration. That I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can ye possibly bear witness that besides Allah there is another God?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the One God, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him." [6]
Karaite wrote:What if anything of all that you said, is actually verifiable? What correction did the Qu'ran make, that we can go back, and see in the original Scripture, and say, 'hey, yea, we have found a manuscript that said exactly this, and is the oldest in circulation..." or something like that?
Let me see. Even if you were to find such a thing then you would say well Muhammad extracted his info from people related to those finding etc...
But better yet I covered some of this in dialogue with Believer
dealing with the Crucifixion of Jesus.
The Issue came to be
if there were some Christians at that time that rejected the Crucifixion and Resurrection of Jesus as muslims do today. From what I gathered from Believers response was yes .
Quote:
These were opposed to "the enemies of Christ" but are the "ememies of the CROSS of Christ" . The subject is the Cross which represents the crucifixion, and not Christ.
Who were these that walked in the same way they walked but were against the Crucifixion of Jesus whom Paul deligently slandered ? You got it , there were Christians in that time that rejected the crucifixion of Jesus
I do believe this is about people that denies Jesus's ressurection. They don't see Jesus's suffereing on the cross as Him bearing our sins. That seems quite realistic.
Everyone saw Jesus nailed to the cross and cruficied. He didn't magically disappear or anything. I do think Mary would have recognized her son whe nHe was taken down. The Jews made sure Jesus was dead by piercing Him with the sword.
http://www.jesus-christ-forums.com/home/viewtopic ... 8221#38221
Again your form of thought is irrelevant when you know darn well if anything sprung up in Christian findings that inclined to Islamic beliefs an excuse will be used to Justify how islam obtained that information.
Karaite wrote: The burden of proof is on Mohammed, to prove that he did not forge it.
The Burden already proven
http://www.it-is-truth.org/Index.shtml commented on by the worlds leading scientists. But however Christians still make up excuses as Allah say about you all:
Say(Muhammad): "O ye People of the Book! why obstruct ye those who believe, from the path of Allah,
seeking to make it crooked, while ye were yourselves witnesses (to Allah's Covenant)? But Allah is not unmindful of all that ye do."
(3:99)
And again about you burden of proof that you all so galantly seek which is in your nature as a Christian Allah says:
In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.
Surah 98 al-bayyinah
[1] Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them clear Evidence,
[2] A Messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy:
[3] Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight.
[4] Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence.
[5] And they have been commanded no more than this: to worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being True (in faith); to establish regular Prayer; and to practise regular Charity; and that is the Religion right and Straight.
[6] Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.