Trinity DebateWHAT DOES THE BIBLE THINK OF JESUSman. i didn't think i was that hard to understand. maybe i've been unclear in what i was saying. i'm not saying that since there are spirits or souls, that simply the fact of their existence demonstrates that they are One with God, or are God. i'm saying that since you're telling me that the Holy Spirit whom God sent, is God Himself according to you, then why does that not apply to the Son whom He sent as well? the only difference here (linguistically) seems to be the word "Spirit". since you believe the "Spirit" to be God since He sent Him, then why is not the Son God as well, since He sent Him? i agree. i wasn't saying anything contrary. well you said: now, since you stated it that way, i ask YOU, since God promised to give us His son, how do you know that the Son is not "God/Divine" also? and it wasn't me who was limiting God because He's "Spirit", you were clearly denying the idea of a spirit having a spirit. so if God sent His Son, like He sent His Spirit, and you believe that the Spirit is God, then what is it that excludes the Son from being God as well (linguistically in this context)? fine. let's assume that this is completely true (although you have your own axioms that you start with as well), it doesn't mean that we're wrong. being an apologist, you should know better. being biased doesn't mean that one's automatically wrong. what matters is what's actually right, and what the Bible supports. now, the Council of Nicea no more created the existence of the Trinity than Moses created the existence of YHWH Himself. it may have excogitated upon it and politicized it to an extent, but the NT itself was the reason for the idea in the first place. Jesus Himself claimed Divinity: John 10:30;33 John 14:10 Mark 10:18 (If God alone is good, and Jesus is good, then the statement is clear). John 8:58 (Here He's claiming to be the eternal "I AM") and then verse 59 shows that they tried to stone Him because they understood what He was saying. also: He is the Creator (Colossians 1:16–17). He has the ability to forgive sins (Luke 7:47–50) and judge all people (John 5:27). He sends forth the Holy Spirit (John 15:26). He accepts worship (Hebrews 1:6, Matthew 14:33) He is called ‘Lord’ (Romans 10:9) where ‘Lord’ (kurios) is a translation of the Old Testament Yahweh (= God) (Romans 10:13 cites Joel 2:32 which makes this clear) And He is identified with the ‘Alpha and Omega’ and the equivalent ‘the first and the last’ (Revelation 1:8, 17–18, cf. Isaiah 44:6). In the Old Testament, He is the Child who is called ‘Mighty God’ and ‘Everlasting Father’ (Hebrew is literally ‘Father of Eternity’, meaning ‘Author of Eternity’) (Isaiah 9:6, cf. 10:21) He would be born in Bethlehem, yet His ‘goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ (Micah 5:2) and several others that i just don't have time to post right now. i'm only following what Jesus has told us, i'm not simply following some doctrine of the Council of Nicea. if we're wrong, Jesus led us astray. well, "apart from Me there is no Savior", sounds pretty clear to me. the verses you gave don't disprove what i'm saying. the only way you can reject Jesus as Divine is to reject the words that He said in the NT (some of which i just posted). like i said, you've taken the stance of an absolute negation. which means that every verse has to support what you say. if there's one verse that contradicts you, then your stance is untennable because a man claiming to be Divine (as Jesus does) is blasphemy. but the Divine Jesus taking on human form and being made in the likeness of a man, is not blasphemy, but the mercy and love of God for us sinners. your position can never be sustained. and you still haven't answered or responded (critically or generously) to many of the things i've said to you. you've led me to believe that you can't answer them. however different our views are, i really thank you and i appreciate talking to you. you challenged me in ways i've never seen before and presented a fantastic case. you made me dig and understand what i profess to believe more than possibly anyone else has. i thank you for that. you also forced me to understand and study what i believe and have given me firmer conviction in my heart that Jesus is exactly who He claimed to be. (and i'm honestly not trying to be patronizing, in case it sounds that way). |
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