Trinity DebateWHAT DOES THE BIBLE THINK OF JESUSAineo wrote: well that post wan't responding directly to something i said, so i didn't read it all. i'll look at it though. and also, i already responded to the NT passage you gave. but if what you've just said is the point of that post, then i disagree not at all. you seem to misunderstand the fact that we agree that Jesus was FULLY human. all those OT passages that show His humanity moves us neither here nor there. we don't disagree there. and just as well, i asked you some questions too, which you haven't answered. what is it that you believe? what school of thought, or religion do you belong to, or more closely identify with? i don't disagree with that verse. i disagree with how you're implying "One God". i think of our "One God" as the Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). and under that framework, the verse works fine because Jesus is the Mediator. now if the verse said "One God (ONLY the Father)", then i would have a problem. a good analogy for the Trinity (the best i'm aware of anyway) is Time. there are three aspects of Time (Past, Present, and Future), but ONE essence of "Time". if God (in this verse) represents "Time" for this analogy, then Jesus (Present) would be distinct from Past, but still part of "Time". according to this analogy as I'm relating it to this verse, it's saying that there's One Time (Past, Present, Future), and One Mediator (Present) between Time and Men. switch it back to the language of the verse and we get One God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), and One Mediator (Christ Jesus) between God and men. this analogy may sound foolish, but these verses are not what we're questioning. we're questioning the axioms one uses in interpreting the verses. of course we can. read John 1:1-2;14. there are also lots of other verses that show His Divinity. i think what you meant to say was "You cannot find a Scripture where Jesus Himself states that He is God." if this is the case, then show me where Jesus says "I am a Prophet." or "I am a man." He doesn't say those things either, but we know He was both. so that gets us nowhere as well. this is completely false, even by your own reasoning. because you've said several times that there's ONE GOD. if Jesus (not being Divine as you persist) was "equal" with God, then that would make Him God. anything other than that means that you need to re-word that statement. as far as i know in the OT God is THE Judge (Judges 11:27): "I have not wronged you, but you are doing me wrong by waging war against me. Let the LORD, the Judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites." it seems false to think that God would relinquish His position of Judge to a mere creation. He IS the Judge. He needs no one to Judge but Himself. in essence He IS the Judge anyway, even if Jesus were appointed to be Judge (if Jesus was created as you say) because Judgment comes from God's very nature and Person when dealing with us. to say that someone besides God is the Judge is to say something that is intrinsically impossible. Judgment comes from God and ultimately leads back to God. to introduce this "middle-man" would be for God to add an unnecessary step concerning His judgment. To say that Jesus Christ is the Judge, is simply to say that God is the Judge, and therefore that Jesus Christ is God (or Divine). this is merely semantics. i haven't really called Jesus "God", because "God" is actually Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so how can the Son be all 3? i've referred to Jesus as Divine. and once again, you seem to misunderstand Jesus' humanity. He became fully human and emptied Himself and took on the form of a servant as Philippians 2:6-11 says. the problem with your position is that it is an absolute negation, or an existential proposition (as Dallas Willard calls it). in order for your position to be right, EVERY SINGLE VERSE has to deny Divinity. not just the ones you've presented (although when properly understood in their CORRECT context don't help you anyway). Jesus claims to be the eternal "I AM", He claims to be the Truth (who is the Truth but God?), He is resisted and threatened with being stoned to death by the Jews for "Claiming to be God". if He even claims, or its demonstrated, that He was Divine, then either He was, or He was the ultimate blasphemer. i don't see how it's possible to have Him not be Divine considering all He did and said, and all that was said about Him, while denying that He was not a blasphemer. it doesn't make sense to me. |
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