Trinity DebateWHAT DOES THE BIBLE THINK OF JESUSabsolutetruth wrote:Since you did not read my whole post then I suggest you do. And then I suggest you pray to God for wisdom to understand His word.
i qualified that by saying "i'll look at it though." and "but if what you've just said is the point of that post, then i disagree not at all."
so be patient so i can read your three page post. and deal with the massive amount of verses you presented (also known as "elephant hurling").
First of all since you belittled the one NT Scripture I posted, I decided to give you more than just one verse. Second, I suggest you keep your comments free of sarcasm since sarcasm does not contribute to courteous discussions. And then I suggest you pray to God for wisdom to understand His word.
funny, cuz you haven't responded to my objections. you continue to tell me that i'm wrong, but you don't deal with my arguments that support what i'm saying.
I have responded to you objections. You brought up John 1 and I pointed you to Philo of Alexander to understand how John used "Logos". I am a Christian and not affiliated with any denomination since all denominations are doctrine driven. This means they teach doctrines and then find Scripture to back up their doctrine while ignoring all Scriptures that don't.
i could just as easily say the same thing, and accuse you of trying to find scripture to back up what you already presuppose. i interpret scripture with scripture, and read the Word by exegesis, not eisegesis.
Who gave you or anyone the authority to interpret Scripture? Peter warns us about interpreting Scripture. 2 Peter 1:19-21
19 And so we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God. NAS
Now, Jesus fulfilled many OT prophesies that concern a man not God. the very fact that we have different views from the same passages shows this to be a naiive claim from you. you have your starting points, as i have mine. the question is, are they backed by scripture. and since Jesus clearly says things that no created being could ever say without being blasphemous, then it's not as simple as you're attempting to make it.
You are proving my point. Have you not read this: John 8:25-26
26 "I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you, but He who sent Me is true; and the things which I heard from Him, these I speak to the world." NAS
Your time analogy is a bit foolish since to humans time is linear but to God time is fluid. What we see as tomorrow He sees as past events.
is it foolish because it's foolish, or is it foolish because you've misunderstood it? definitely the latter. maybe that's my fault.
i'm not talking about how God sees time compared to us. i'm talking about US seeing time as an analogy for God.
There are many analogies for the Trinity. Water exists in three forms (vapor, ice, and liquid); mankinds has a body, spirit, and soul. The analogies used are many and varied. So I did understand your analogy I simply rejected it. please don't misunderstand me again and then proceed to call me or my ideas foolish. get your understanding right before responding.
i'll just deal quickly with some of your points since they mostly are similar:
regarding "Does God have a God": i answered this already. Jesus became obedient to the will of the Father and took on the nature of a servant (Phil 2:6-8 ), and became a little lower than the angels for a time (Hebrews 2:7-9).
I will again suggest you refrain from sarcasm. You posted your analogy might seem foolish and all I did was agree.
Now as to your explanation, it might be valid if what I posted was not written after the resurrection. Also when you check out the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah He is called God's servant and annointed King. You will also read the the Messiah's name will be called Immanuel, what you will not read is the Messiah is Immanuel. regarding the "only one God" passages: i agree that there is a distinction that's made. but how else would we have clear understanding on this? passages like Romans 16:27 would end up a little redundant and confusing if it were to read "to the only wise God, through God, be the glory forever." and indeed, other passages would get even more confusing. Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of (God) and of (God) and of (God)." there must be some distinction for clarification. and the context of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 doesn't help you either. since other "gods" are being contrasted to the one true God, the verse juxtaposes false "gods" with the real God. one side of the verse you have "false gods" and the other side you have God, and Jesus Christ. this demonstrates His Divinity, not the opposite.
Matthew 28:19 is thought to be a spurious addition to Scripture. You might like to check out the manuscript evidence concerning this. However, the baptismal formulae does not prove Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. Also you need to take your own advise concerning thinking before you respond. If and I emphasize the "if" Jesus is God then we should read Jesus is God in plain language in the NT. The fact is we don't. We read that Jesus was appointed heir, is the first-born of creation, is a servant, and a man who is the only mediator between God and man. regarding the "firstborn" of all creation: i can't believe you're using this. "the biblical use of the word "firstborn" is most interesting. It can mean the first born child in a family (Luke 2:7), but it can also mean "pre-eminence." In Psalm 89:20, 27 it says, "I have found David My servant; with My holy oil I have anointed him...I also shall make him My first-born" (NASB). As you can see, David, who was the last one born in his family was called the firstborn by God. This is a title of preeminence.
firstborn is also a title that is transferable:
Gen. 41:51-52, "And Joseph called the name of the first-born Manasseh: For, said he, God hath made me forget all my toil, and all my father’s house. And the name of the second called he Ephraim: For God hath made me fruitful in the land of my affliction" (NASB)
Jer. 31:9, "...for I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is My firstborn (NASB)."
Scripture best interprets scripture. Firstborn does not require a meaning of first created."
However, if you are allowing Scripture to explain Scripture your analysis of first-born denies the context of Colossians 1:15 as well as the OT prophecies concerning the Messiah. here's also an answer from Jonathan Sarfati:
"Jesus is called ‘the firstborn of every creature’ (Colossians 1:15). However, in Jewish imagery, ‘firstborn’ means ‘having the rights and special privileges belonging to the eldest child’. It refers to pre-eminence in rank more than to priority in time. This can be shown in passages where the term ‘firstborn’ is used of the pre-eminent son who was not the eldest, e.g. Psalm 89:27, where David is called ‘firstborn’ although he was actually the youngest son.
‘Firstborn’ does not mean ‘first created’; the Greek for the latter is protoktisis, while firstborn is prototokos. In fact, the verses after Colossians 1:15 show that Christ Himself is the creator of all things.
Did you read what I posted from Hebrews? If not lets look at it again. Hebrews 1:1-5
1:1 God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, 2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. 3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they. 5 For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee"?NAS
God created through the Son. If as you state you let Scripture explain Scripture then you need to take the whole word of God into account not just one of two portions of Scripture that seem to make your case. Jesus is Son of God. From this, some cults try to show that Jesus is somehow less than God. But in Jewish imagery, ‘the son of’ often meant ‘of the order of’ or ‘having the very nature of’. For example, ‘sons of the prophets’ meant ‘of the order of prophets’ (1 Kings 20:35); ‘sons of the singers’ meant ‘of the order of singers’ (Nehemiah 12:28 ). Jesus’ Jewish contemporaries understood that He was claiming to be God, which is why they wanted to kill him for blasphemy (John 19:7).
Jesus is the ‘only-begotten Son’ (John 3:16). The Greek word translated ‘only-begotten’ is monogenes, which means ‘unique, ‘one of a kind’. Jesus is the unique Son of God, because he is God by His very nature (see above). Believers in Him become ‘sons of God’ by adoption (Galatians 3:26–4:7).
This is shown in the human realm by Hebrews 11:17, where Isaac is called Abraham’s ‘only begotten son’. Abraham had other sons, but Isaac was the unique son of the Abrahamic Covenant (Genesis chapters 15–18, 20), born when his parents were old." Ah, but you want to ignore what the NT says about God being the "monos" God. "Monogenes" is derived from "monos". Also you are ignoring that only Jesus was born of a woman without a human father, which makes Jesus unique since Adam who was created. regarding all the rest of your post, you can keep cutting and pasting all these HUNDREDS of verses and information from a bunch of websites, and keep trying to keep the real arguments and difficulties at bay with this "elephant hurling", but i'm gonna keep going for one point. Jesus made claims that were He not Divine, He blasphemed against God.
why don't you actually talk to me, instead of hiding behind all this cutting an pasting from websites?
Jesus is the Son of God but Jesus is not and never was God. Jesus is the image of the invisible God and the exact representation of God's nature who God highly exalted that at His name (not His person) every knee in heaven and on earth will bow.
interesting. Jesus claims to be the Saviour of the world (John 3:16-17), and God says in Isaiah 43:11 "I even I am the Lord, and apart from me there is no Savior."
according to this, in order for Jesus to be our Savior, He HAS to be our God.
will you please answer what i have written in the other posts, and respond to my objections and refutations, instead of just posting a million passages and making me go through them and spend countless time refuting them.
like i said, you have made an absolute negation. the verses that you've given (that YOU feel deny Christ's Divinity) aren't enough. you need to have EVERY VERSE IN THE BIBLE deny His Divinity, otherwise someone lied, or He's Divine. and i've shown just a few verses that support that claim. if you want more, i'll be glad to provide them.
Ah, so giving you information so you can do some real research instead of parroting what you have learned by rote is elephant hurling?
absolutetruth, I have been studying the Bible for 50+ years and accepted the Trinity as Biblical fact until recently when I decided to pray for wisdom and read every word that proceeds from the mouth of God instead of parroting what I have been taught for decades. Now, all you have done is resort to the usual defense for the Trinity that I used. What you have shown me is you are not really interested in questioning a doctrine developed by Greek man who did not have any understanding of the foundation of Christianity. These Greek men who were influenced by Greek pagan philosophy were the first to put forth the concept of 3 Gods in one. This is paganism. Zeus was the father of Hercules (the god of victory and commerce) and was born of a human mother.
Now I suggest you get into the OT and study the Messianic propecies that Jesus fulfilled. One of the OT Scriptures I posted was: Deuteronomy 18:15-19
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your countrymen, you shall listen to him. 16 This is according to all that you asked of the LORD your God in Horeb on the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, let me not see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' 17 "And the LORD said to me, 'They have spoken well. 18'I will raise up a prophet from among their countrymen like you, and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. 19'And it shall come about that whoever will not listen to My words which he shall speak in My name, I Myself will require it of him. NAS
Commentators interpret this verse to mean a line of prophets, which totally ignores what we read in John: John 1:19-21
19 And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent to him priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, "Who are you?" 20 And he confessed, and did not deny, and he confessed, "I am not the Christ." 21 And they asked him, "What then? Are you Elijah?" And he said, "I am not." "Are you the Prophet?" And he answered, "No." NAS
The priests and the Levites still expected Moses prophecy to be fulfilled. Jesus told the Jews in John 5: John 5:45-47
45 "Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope. 46 "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote of Me. 47 "But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?" NAS
God is not a prophet like Moses, therefore either Moses is a false prophet or the Trinity is a manmade doctrine that has deceived many for almost 2000 years.
My "elephant hurling" has a purpose and that purpose is to get people to think instead of parroting what they have learned by rote. Deuteronomy 5:6-10
6'I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery.
7'You shall have no other gods before Me.
8'You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 9'You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, and on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 10 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments. NAS
Deuteronomy 6:4-5
4 "Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! 5 "And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. NAS
One does not mean three.
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