Trinity DebateWHAT DOES THE BIBLE THINK OF JESUSAineo: here are some of the things that i've said that i haven't gotten a response for:
what (or who) are you talking about putting this "faith" in? in a creation of God? of course not.
and if Christ be not Divine, then what's wrong with the Jehovah's witness stance or Mormon stance (on this particular issue of course)?
i'm thinking of passages like John 5:22-23:
22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.
and Alistair Begg commenting on this verse says, "If it is actually impossible not to honor the Father except in the righteous honor of the Son, then those who claim to honor the Father without honoring the Son, do not honor the Father, therefore they must have spiritual power from somewhere. Where?"
a Christian (by the least of definitions) means one who follows the teachings of Christ, and puts faith in Him for their salvation and atonement of their sins. well one of His teachings is that He is One with the Father (Divine).
now keep in mind we're talking about whether a person can truly be called a Christian, not whether one is going to be saved as one. For as some theologians and philosophers like John Macarthur and C.S. Lewis have pointed out that there are prostitutes and other such people from the lowest modes of life that are actually closer to salvation than some of the highest of the “religious” elite.
and i agree with this (somewhat), which is why i didn't try this line of reasoning. although, we have to admit, it can clearly be demonstrated that Jesus is called Lord in a far different way than Saul or anyone else is in the OT. this is firmly supported by the fact that nobody lived a sinless life except Christ. so the other people who may have been called "Lord" ipso facto become excluded from being called "Lord" in the same sense in which we're talking about. Christ didn't sin, and therefore isn't excluded from being God in human flesh (since this is a charactaristic that we would expect from God should He present Himself humanly).
now of course, that doesn't mean that He actually IS God in human flesh, it just means that He's not excluded like the others are, so He can't be referred to as "Lord" in the same sense they are, that's all.
and even God refers to other "gods" in the OT, but that doesn't mean that He really is saying that there are other actual "gods" existing as He does. we can see from context and proper hermeneutics that He was utilizing language that we could understand.
so attempting to demonstrate that since Jesus is called Lord in the NT; and others are referred to as "Lord" in the OT but they were just men; that therefore calling Jesus Lord in the NT is the same as the examples in the OT is to commit a fallacy in logic. in plain language:
"Just because two things have one thing in common, therefore they have everything in common."
so i would say that your argument doesn't work.
now could a man be a man and be God as well? of course not. but could God, become a man, and still be God? certainly, since God is Spirit (John 4:24).
you can't just grab verses that seem to deny the claim to Divinity without looking at the ones that affirm it. and the negative stance is the more difficult stance since a mere man, a creation, claiming to be One with God would be blasphemy of the highest order. however, there's nothing blasphemous about God coming in human form.
this is completely false, even by your own reasoning. because you've said several times that there's ONE GOD. if Jesus (not being Divine as you persist) was "equal" with God, then that would make Him God. anything other than that means that you need to re-word that statement.
as far as i know in the OT God is THE Judge (Judges 11:27):
"I have not wronged you, but you are doing me wrong by waging war against me. Let the LORD, the Judge, decide the dispute this day between the Israelites and the Ammonites."
it seems false to think that God would relinquish His position of Judge to a mere creation. He IS the Judge. He needs no one to Judge but Himself. in essence He IS the Judge anyway, even if Jesus were appointed to be Judge (if Jesus was created as you say) because Judgment comes from God's very nature and Person when dealing with us.
to say that someone besides God is the Judge is to say something that is intrinsically impossible. Judgment comes from God and ultimately leads back to God. to introduce this "middle-man" would be for God to add an unnecessary step concerning His judgment. To say that Jesus Christ is the Judge, is simply to say that God is the Judge, and therefore that Jesus Christ is God (or Divine).
this is merely semantics. i haven't really called Jesus "God", because "God" is actually Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, so how can the Son be all 3? i've referred to Jesus as Divine.
and once again, you seem to misunderstand Jesus' humanity. He became fully human and emptied Himself and took on the form of a servant as Philippians 2:6-11 says.
the problem with your position is that it is an absolute negation, or an existential proposition (as Dallas Willard calls it). in order for your position to be right, EVERY SINGLE VERSE has to deny Divinity. not just the ones you've presented (although when properly understood in their CORRECT context don't help you anyway).
Jesus claims to be the eternal "I AM", He claims to be the Truth (who is the Truth but God?), He is resisted and threatened with being stoned to death by the Jews for "Claiming to be God". if He even claims, or its demonstrated, that He was Divine, then either He was, or He was the ultimate blasphemer.
i don't see how it's possible to have Him not be Divine considering all He did and said, and all that was said about Him, while denying that He was not a blasphemer. it doesn't make sense to me.
regarding the "only one God" passages: i agree that there is a distinction that's made. but how else would we have clear understanding on this? passages like Romans 16:27 would end up a little redundant and confusing if it were to read "to the only wise God, through God, be the glory forever." and indeed, other passages would get even more confusing. Matthew 28:19 "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of (God) and of (God) and of (God)." there must be some distinction for clarification. and the context of 1 Corinthians 8:4-6 doesn't help you either. since other "gods" are being contrasted to the one true God, the verse juxtaposes false "gods" with the real God. one side of the verse you have "false gods" and the other side you have God, and Jesus Christ. this demonstrates His Divinity, not the opposite.
like i said, you have made an absolute negation. the verses that you've given (that YOU feel deny Christ's Divinity) aren't enough. you need to have EVERY VERSE IN THE BIBLE deny His Divinity, otherwise someone lied, or He's Divine. and i've shown just a few verses that support that claim. if you want more, i'll be glad to provide them.
nor have you responded to this:
Jesus said Himself:
Mark 2:28 Jesus claims to be Lord of the Sabbath. who is Lord of the sabbath but God Himself (Exodus 20:10)?
Mark 2:1-12 Jesus claims authority to forgive sins and performs a miraculous cure to prove it. The scribes are angered because they believe that only God has the authority to forgive sins. These claims are quite extraordinary for someone who is "humble in heart." (Matt 11:29)
John 8:58-59 The full meaning of His statement in John 8:58 is best understood in connection with Exodus 3:14. In Exodus God reveals His name to Moses (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:24 & 58, Jesus is referring to Himself with God's name. The scribes understand Him as such and respond by throwing rocks at Him. They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy - referring to Himself as God (John 5:18 ).
John 10:30-33 Jesus tells the Jews that He is One with the Father. they pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy of claiming to be God. they clearly understood the implications of what He was saying.
Revelations 1:7-8 Jesus is seen as the one who was "pierced" and claims that He is the "Alpha and Omega". surely He is claiming Divinity there. John calls Him "Lord God", and Jesus claims to be "The Almighty".
Revelations 1:17-18 Jesus says again that He is the "First and the Last". and clearly this is Jesus speaking here for He says He was dead, but is alive.
John 5:17 Jesus says that He works on the Sabbath just like the Father works. meaning that He isn't under the law of the sabbath since it was made for men (Mark 2:27). clearly demonstrating His Divinity. which is why the Jews sought to kill Him because He broke the law of the sabbath and made Himself equal with God (John 5:18 ).
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