Trinity DebateWHAT DOES THE BIBLE THINK OF JESUSoh my goodness, gracious. i cannot believe that you said that. you, who has been studying the Bible for 50+ years. you deliberately left out the verse that says it's David that's being talked about. that's what i said before. you use those verses that help you, but ignore those that don't. and this verse is VERY conspicuous by its absence. here's a couple lines before the verse you started at. Psalm 89:20-27: notice the first line, verse 20: "I have found David my servant". and then the rest goes on and applies to David. what about them? you keep posting them, saying that they're talking about a man, and i agree. how's that a refusal to address them? you've actually done none of that. and i'm not talking about men, or wrangled words, or what doctrines people have allegedly created. i'm talking about those things that Jesus said Himself: Mark 2:28 Jesus claims to be Lord of the Sabbath. who is Lord of the sabbath but God Himself (Exodus 20:10)? Mark 2:1-12 Jesus claims authority to forgive sins and performs a miraculous cure to prove it. The scribes are angered because they believe that only God has the authority to forgive sins. These claims are quite extraordinary for someone who is "humble in heart." (Matt 11:29) John 8:58-59 The full meaning of His statement in John 8:58 is best understood in connection with Exodus 3:14. In Exodus God reveals His name to Moses (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:24 & 58, Jesus is referring to Himself with God's name. The scribes understand Him as such and respond by throwing rocks at Him. They wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy - referring to Himself as God (John 5:18 ). John 10:30-33 Jesus tells the Jews that He is One with the Father. they pick up stones to stone Him for blasphemy of claiming to be God. they clearly understood the implications of what He was saying. Revelations 1:7-8 Jesus is seen as the one who was "pierced" and claims that He is the "Alpha and Omega". surely He is claiming Divinity there. John calls Him "Lord God", and Jesus claims to be "The Almighty". Revelations 1:17-18 Jesus says again that He is the "First and the Last". and clearly this is Jesus speaking here for He says He was dead, but is alive. John 5:17 Jesus says that He works on the Sabbath just like the Father works. meaning that He isn't under the law of the sabbath since it was made for men (Mark 2:27). clearly demonstrating His Divinity. which is why the Jews sought to kill Him because He broke the law of the sabbath and made Himself equal with God (John 5:18 ). no? well, the Father is honored with worship and praise and communication of prayer. apply those things to Jesus and we are idoloters (taking the praise and worship that belongs to God and giving it to someone or something else) be He not God. you've merely said words not reality. you won't find those things in the Bible because the word "Trinity" wasn't used when the Canon was being closed and came into use after the 1st or 2nd century. and i gave you several instances where Jesus is shown to be or claims to be Divine. i just posted them for you. not at all. God is spirit (John 4:24). think of it as addition. He added to His Divine nature, the nature of Humanity. He didn't CEASE to be Divine. He ADDED humanity. see? that's why it would help if you'd read what i've already written. i've answered this elementary challenge several times already. every other human is sinful besides Christ, so we cannot be considered equal to Him in that sense. we're automatically excluded from that extrapolation. please don't resort to that anymore. all this right here just demonstrates that you haven't read what i've already written, and it equivocates on what these passages mean. i've already shown the idea of "first-born" as you've used it to be false (and hopefully closed the issue in the beginning portion of this post right here). and to say that John 1:1 still makes sense because Jesus was created first, (or like you've said in a different post, that it's God's "Divine Plan", when quoting Philo) still runs into the problem of calling Jesus or that "Divine Plan" God: "And the Word WAS God" (John 1:1). so you have an even bigger problem with this verse. you're making a created being God, or a "Plan" equal to God. now THAT'S blasphemy. glad you asked. i posted some of them earlier. i also made another post before that had a couple of things that i wanted you to address that i still haven't gotten an answer for. hmm mm. nuh uh. don't try that. we're not simply talking about what we "believe" it says. we're trying to demonstrate what it DOES say. which is what you've been doing all along. matter of fact, you've been on the "offensive" most of the time here. don't try and change the point of this debate now. this stance is not only too soft, but it's wrongheaded. God's Word IS Truth, but the INTERPRETATIONS that people may have are not always consistent with that Truth (as evidenced by this very debate). i have no doubt that you would categorically refute and correct a person who believed in the Bible but claimed that Jesus was not crucified and was not our Savior. you would challenge them just as you've done countless other times on these forums. so why should this issue be any different? if you believe the Word says something, then you should destroy the false arguments against it (2 Cor 10:4-5). |
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