Tell me absolutetruth how do you understand this phrase: God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ? I am not using this phrase to show that Jesus is the Son of God. There are a number of Scriptures that state Jesus is the Son of God without you assuming I am interpreting the above phrase to mean Jesus is the Son of God. Now, without trying to disprove what I posted and without trying to defend the Trinity just read the following.
Ephesians 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. NAS
Paul wrote blessed be the God and Father (same person or entity) of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now, if you cannot understand this simple sentence then how can you understand the balance of Scripture. Paul wrote that Jesus has a God.
I will explain about Philo of Alexander one more time. Philo was a Hellenistic Jew and a philosopher who died in 50 A.D. Philo used Plato's concept of "logos" to explain the Judaic theology of monotheism to polytheistic Greeks. I am not going to repost Philo's use of logos you can go back and read it. Now, with Philo's use of logos in mind reread John 1:1-5. John is not telling us Jesus is God or John is confused since we read in John 20:
John 20:17
17 Jesus said to her, "Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.'" NAS
So now do you think you can answer my question; does God have a God? After all Jesus told Mary He does. Jesus also tells two of the churches in Revelation three that He has a God when He uses the phrase "My God".
I have not misunderstood your posts, after all you used the term interpret.
absolutetruth wrote:i could just as easily say the same thing, and accuse you of trying to find scripture to back up what you already presuppose. i interpret scripture with scripture, and read the Word by exegesis, not eisegesis.
Cults interpret scripture with scripture as does the Catholic Church, how else do you think they came up with some of their heretical doctrines?
You get tired of repeating yourself? Well, so do I. It is clear you are simply scanning my posts and not reading what I post with understanding. BTW, water can exist as vapor, liquid, and solid at the same time, while your example of time cannot so the water analogy is a better example of the Trinity than time as is body, soul, and spirit, which coexist as a unit.
Now, Jesus fulfilled many OT prophesies that concern a man not God.
once again: why do i have to continue to repeat myself? those scriptures most certainly DO concern a man. the MAN Christ Jesus. your axioms lead you to say "not God". those scriptures most certainly COULD concern God, were He to take on human form. [/quote][/quote]Really? Then what you are telling me is that Moses was also part of the Trinity since the prophesied prophet is a man like Moses? Lets look at just a couple of those prophesies you say can apply to God.
Genesis 3:15
5 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel. " NAS
I don’t see God’s seed in this do you?
Zechariah 6:12-13
12 "Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts," Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD. 13 "Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne. Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."' NAS
Now either God is playing games or Zechariah is a false prophet if the Branch is not only a man but God. Can God be His own priest?
Now lets move to the New Testament.
Romans 5:14-15
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. NAS
The seed of Eve and the Branch who is the man who will be priest on His throne must be a human being and not God or the OT prophesies are false. Through the man Adam sin entered the world and through the man Jesus God redeemed mankind.
Have you read the history of the Trinity? The first Early Church Father to propose Jesus is God was Justin Martyr. One of his proof was a partial quote from Hebrews:
Hebrews 1:8
Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, NAS
Now any Jew who read Hebrews would have known this is part of Psalm 45:
Psalms 45:6-7
6 Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Thy kingdom.
7 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated wickedness;
Therefore God, Thy God, has anointed Thee
With the oil of joy above Thy fellows.
NAS
Paul might have had this in mind when he wrote:
Philippians 2:1-11
2:1 If therefore there is any encouragement in Christ, if there is any consolation of love, if there is any fellowship of the Spirit, if any affection and compassion, 2 make my joy complete by being of the same mind, maintaining the same love, united in spirit, intent on one purpose. 3 Do nothing from selfishness or empty conceit, but with humility of mind let each of you regard one another as more important than himself; 4 do not merely look out for your own personal interests, but also for the interests of others. 5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 Therefore also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. NAS
Notice I underlined “in his name”, so lets look at Isaiah
Isaiah 7:14
14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.
NAS
Isaiah 9:6-7
6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us;
And the government will rest on His shoulders;
And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.
7 There will be no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
On the throne of David and over his kingdom,
To establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness
From then on and forevermore.
The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this. NAS
There is a vast difference between “His name will be called” and “He will be”.
what? are you serious? the verse i gave you (Phil 2:6-8 ) says that Jesus took on the form of a servant. and the NT also says that Jesus is King: (Luke 23:3) "So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied." and (John 18:36) "Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world."
I am dead serious. Since you let the Bible interpret or explain the Bible then why assume those verses mean Jesus is God? First in regard to Philippians 2:6-8, Jesus was not a servant so he took on the
form of a servant and fulfilled these prophecies: Isaiah 42:1-3. 49:1-6, 52:13-15, and 53:11.
As to Luke 23:3 and John 18:36 read Psalm 2:
Psalms 2:1-7
Why are the nations in an uproar,
And the peoples devising a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth take their stand,
And the rulers take counsel together
Against the LORD and against His
Anointed:
3 "Let us tear their fetters apart,
And cast away their cords from us!"
4 He who sits in the heavens laughs,
The Lord scoffs at them.
5 Then He will speak to them in His anger
And terrify them in His fury:
6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'Thou art My Son,
Today I have begotten Thee.
NAS
BTW, this reminds me to ask you something. In the OT when you see the word LORD in all caps do you know what the Hebrew word is? It is YHWH, or Yehova (Jehovah). The only Bible that translates YHWH as Jehovah is the American Standard Bible, well other than the JW’s New World Translation.
Matthew 28:19 is thought to be a spurious addition to Scripture. You might like to check out the manuscript evidence concerning this. However, the baptismal formulae does not prove Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. Also you need to take your own advise concerning thinking before you respond. If and I emphasize the "if" Jesus is God then we should read Jesus is God in plain language in the NT. The fact is we don't. We read that Jesus was appointed heir, is the first-born of creation, is a servant, and a man who is the only mediator between God and man.
to challenge the authenticity or accuracy of the Bible, is to even question the parts you profess to believe.
You need to get into the real world. We know that 1 John 5:7 as found in the KJV is a spurious inclusion made by Erasmus when he compiled his Greek NT. There are other passages that do not appear in the oldest manuscripts such as the ending of Mark's Gospel. Now as to Matthew 28:19:
A Collection of the evidence for and against the traditional wording of the baptismal phrase in Matthew 28:19 and why "should" we see the words "Jesus is God in plain language"? what makes you so sure about that? you're simply appealing to what you've already decided on in your mind. something you've accused me of.
Did you read my last post? I already posted that I accepted the Trinity until recently and changed my view based on God’s word. On the other hand all you have done is ignore and/or failed to respond with anything of substance concerning the OT prophecies. What does the Bible tell us about whom Jesus is? Peter calls Jesus a servant; Paul calls Him a man; and Hebrews calls Him our High Priest; John, Peter, Paul, and Luke call Him the Son of God; and Peter, Paul, and Jude tells us Jesus is our Savior; but none of them refer to Jesus as God. Jude wrote:
Jude 24-25
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy, 25 to the only God our Savior, through Jesus Christ our Lord, be glory, majesty, dominion and authority, before all time and now and forever. Amen. NAS
As to the balance of your post I am not going to waste my time responding. I already explained why Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega. What you are refusing to accept is the significance of the OT prophecies where we are told God appointed and/or anointed the Messiah as King, and etc.
I will end this with the Lord’s own words:
Matthew 4:4
"It is written, 'Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God.'" NAS
The only way you or any Trinitarian can support this doctrine is to ignore the vast majority of the words that proceed from the mouth of God. God appointed His only begotten Son to be servant, King, Lord, the Alpha and the Omega, and our Savior. A man caused the fall of mankind and the only perfect man to walk this earth is the Lamb of God and the only acceptable sacrifice for our sins. A man caused our fall and a man was used of God to redeem mankind.