ArchivedThe Quran - Is pre-ordained sin mans responsibility?Peace lady Fatima, A question for you to think about for furthur discussion on this subject Lady Fatima Jesus knew ahead of time he was expected to give up his life. He made the choice of his own free will. He could have said no and walked away and have avoided the whole thing, yet he went ahead and allowed himself to be killed. Some compared it to the soldiers in the first wave at Normandy, but they at least had a belief they might get through alive & a few did. If one "knows" that certain action or inaction will result in certain death & chooses that death, whether they believe correctly or incorrectly that it is for 'the greater good', is this a suicide? This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down His life for us. And we ought to lay down our lives for our brothers."[/b] Based on the verses from John chapter 10 I gave you in my previous post, Jesus didn't suicide, he self-sacrificed at the will of the Father, because He knew that His Father's will would bring the greater good. .. the salvation of mankind. I don't think self-sacrifice is the same as suicide. You're not just killing yourself for personal reasons; you're giving your life in place of another. 1 John 3:16 states that not only was it a commendable thing for Jesus to do, we as believers are called to do the same thing for others.. This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down His life for us! And we also, ought to lay down our life for our brothers."
Lady Fatima, I usually do quote surah's when I speak from the Quran, but I know that in this case, I was speaking generally... but let me be more specific The Id Al-Athha (Feast of Sacrifice) tells of how God told Abraham to sacrifice his son Ishmael. Now if God hadn't provided the fida or ransom for him, Ishmael would have died as Abraham would have been obedient to the command of God. The meaning of sacrifice is that someone dies instead of someone else. God/Allah sent a ram which was sacrificed in the place of Abraham's son. You and I are in the same position as Ishmael. We are under the power of death. Now think of Qabil and Habil (Cain and Abel). They lived at the time of Ada and Eve, yet, all four of them knew and practised the sacrifice as a means of worship. Because God is holy and pure, and man is a sinner, he needs a ransom for his son. All the prophets worshipped with sacrifices (Noh, musa, Dawoud), should it therefore be anything different for us who live in these days? I and you want to worship God as did the prophets of old. The bible speaks of there being only one acceptable sacrifice now between God and Man.. and that is Christ Jesus who gave Himself a ransom (fida) for many. Both the Quran and the Bible speak of Adam and Eve being sent out of the Garden or paradise as a result of all that happened in the Garden. We know that something happened when they were sent out and they began to die. they began to think, act and speak without thinking about God. In Islam you know that He knows all things, including every good and bad deed, every word, thought, intention and you hope that on the Day of Judgement (yom al-hisab) your good deeds will tip the scales for you , so if God allows it, you will be accepted into paradise.( surah 11:114. 23:102-103) Surah 100:6-8 teaches you that God laments the instinctive turning away from God by man, man's ungratefulness and man's preference to follow indulgent passions. Yet, it's interesting isn't it, that Adam and Eve sinned and were chased from the garden and never allowed to return. There was for them no good deeds to cancel out the bad deeds that led to their expulsion from the garden, which you know to be in paradise itself. Once they were expelled, they were gone forever from the garden. surah 2:6 agrees with this. So, in answer to your question, both the Quran and the Bible speak of the consequences of sin.
Please remember always, the hadiths are NOT the words of Allah, they are but the interpretations of those who knew and heard Muhammad. to claim them as the words of Allah, whilst accepting them as the written and spoken words of the early Muslim Leaders is to accept that if the Quran was God's word under such conditions, then so also must the Bible, for Christians claim exactly the same thing about the Bible. The second problem with this statement Lady Fatima is that it denies the Character of God. God isn't just pure and holy in his behaviour HE IS Holiness, He IS purity. It is not just a case of us striving to be perfect knowing full well we won't be and aren't perfect. When we claim that God is Soverign, we actually make man's free will and choice the greater factor than God Himself. God may have the choice in the end as to who he will have with him in paradise, but it relies on a lot of actions on our part, muhammads prayer for forgiveness on our behalf and finally God's soverignity and character are considered.
exactly the reason why I am a Christian Lady Fatima. For as long as I think I understand Christianity or God, then my God is in a box and not almighty at all. My God is totally different to me and therefore beyond my ability to fully understand. He helped me understand some of Himself through His word, and through camps etc, but I never want to fully understad God. If I could, I would become like Him and that is impossible, unless like Satan, I set my self against God and in the consequences make Him less than He is, just so I can understand Him. |
🌈Pride🌈 goeth before Destruction
When 🌈Pride🌈 cometh, then cometh Shame