Christian/Muslim ThreadsNo Proof Quran Copied from Bible, Gnostic or Jewish Sources
Where is the proof that the quraish wrote religious documents in quraish? where is the proof this quraish arabic script exists?
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What exactly are you showing me here? See the bit in bold I have highlighted, where is your proof that quraish arabic was used for writing official religious documents?
Good grief It is obvious you do not know what an oxymoron is My apologies for overestimating you Let us take it step by step:
Do you not see that the two bold statement above are contradictory? HOW ON EARTH WOULD TISDALL BELIEVE THE ARABIC INFANCY WAS THE SOURCE IF THE NEVER STATES SO? didn't you see I was being sarcastic to show you the flaw in your logic? since Tisdall stated several times that this is the source of the story. For a muslim apologetic you are an embarassment of enormous proportions after several posts it is obvious you are unwilling or unable to read without a very skewed context.
Ok buddy let's take this step by step Can you tell me what Tisdall meant when he says "while the legend is evidently the same as that briefly referred to in the quran" what legend is he talking about? what does he mean when he says "Mohammed was reproducing a shortened form of it from memory" help us out here buddy and tell us what it means that Mohammed was reproducing from memory. Say I read an english version of the emperor has no clothes and I told it to someone else, if they wanted to find the original source of that story they would trace it right back to the original danish Hans Christian Anderson fairy tale, I need not consult any written documents to tell a generalised version of the story once I have read it or heard it from someone else or even have an original danish manuscript in my hands for proof that I plagiarised the story, I can still be plagiarising from Hans Christian Anderson and still not be consulting any written documents. I have to say of all the muslim apologists that come here and many make absolutely terrible deductions you by far are in a league of your own. can you explain to me what Tisdall means when in that same chapter he states the source where Mohammed got this story from is:
Good grief are you honestly telling me you did not understand the question? Any objective individual would know that is what I meant, the proof we have given you you dismiss without touching on the reasons why you are dismissing these proofs and asking for more never stressing what that 'more' is because it is obvious you don't know, you will always raise the burden of proof until it is obvious you have no interest in objective truths and are simply being ridiculous, at first I thought you were being a troll but now I am wondering if you have your faculties in order or have even thought out what it is you are hoping to prove? and what a splendid job you are doing defending your religion taking quotes out of context and regurgitating a mantra that is obvious is for your own mental well being, above all else that you are not worshipping the figment of someone's imagination or even worse satan himself. Been provided, the stories in the jewish and christian apocryphas are the same in the koran, the stories of Jesus making animals out of clay is found in the gospel of thomas the israelite and the arabic gospel of the infancy of Jesus, Jesus's birth in the koran is found in the pseudo gospel of Matthew, the story of Mary's birth is found in the protevangelium of James. The story of Mary's marriage to Joseph is found in infancy gospel the nativity of Mary. Bukhari quotes that christian and jewish sects were present in the hijaz: From Bukhari: 9.460: Narrated Abu Huraira: The people of the Book used to read the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostle said (to the Muslims). "Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelieve them, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whatever is revealed to you.' " Even notice that they used to explain the torah to muslims. From Bukhari: 1. 3: ....Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the Pre Islamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write...... Mohammed's wife even had a cousin who was a nestorian priest that Mohammed used to visit, and who used to translate the gospel (notice this is singular and not the 4 canonised gospels that he had access to). From Bukhari: 4.605: Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet),... From Bukhari: 6.478: Narrated Aisha: (the wife of the Prophet) The commencement (of the Divine Inspiration) to Allah's Apostle was in the form of true dreams in his sleep, for he never had a dream but it turned out to be true and clear as the bright daylight......Khadija then took him to Waraqa bin Naufil, the son of Khadija's paternal uncle. Waraqa had been converted to Christianity in the Pre-Islamic Period and used to write Arabic and write of the Gospel in Arabic as much as Allah wished him to write.
It doesn't get more historical for you than your own koran which states repeatedly these accusations of "tales of the ancients" for you to dismiss what these tales of the ancients mean bring forth your evidence with explicit statements that each and every statement of "tale of the ancients" have to do with resurrection stories or non biblical material. Even your emiment imams and mullahs such as ibn kathir understood these "tales of the ancients" to refer to "plagiarised books" it simply doesn't get any more damning than this, if you have anything whatsoever to refute this rather than ad hominem chants and appeals to desperation bring forth one story in your koran that cannot be traced to a plagiarised source. All the stories have been dated pre islam the infancy gospels alone are 2nd century upwards. Are you going to tell us what the etc is? or is that your trump card to raise the burden of proof to ridiculous heights?
Side stepping the issue at hand won't help, here again is what you said: ... Are you or are you not stating that if the arabic gospel of the infancy of Jesus was written in quraish arabic it was evidence that it was pre-islam and if it was written in egyptian arabic it was evidence that it was post islam? bearing in mind that your arguments are negative premises of denying the antecedents since there is no evidence such a quraish arabic script ever existed and such a never before seen quraish arabic script was used for official religious documents or that egyptian arabic was used for official religious documents during that era, these are simple red herring logical fallacies, it seems you are living in cloud cuckoo land, the only reason why you are a muslim is by birth and why you remain a muslim is from unquestioning fear, the moment you start questioning one iota of your religion you are in trouble God does not need fear to keep you in a religion this is nothing but a human concept, fear interferes with your freewill this is something that is not of God. By the way I notice you have avoided answering the question when suras 3 and 5 were revealed? Mecca or Medina? Please if you want to lie and think you can get away with it, your religion will be there to be a thorn in your side, again these are what your eminent mullahs and imams have to say regarding the "tales of the ancients" mentioned in the koran:
Pls do us all the priviledge of explaining what "the books" mentioned in the tafsirs of these verses mean are you honestly trying to side step what your eminent imams and mullahs including ibn kathir understand those books to mean? are you really being rational localising all the books to mean resurrection stories? or nothing at all to do with biblical material such as the tales of Jesus's childhood? Pls tell us exactly what it means when it says "brought us was taken from the books of those who were before us, meaning plagiarized...meaning that the Prophet has plagiarized and learned books of ancient people... how on earth can a logical individual limit books (plural) in this context to any thing other than biblical or apocryphal stories? would you care to tell us which tale in your koran cannot be traced to arabic tales, pagan, zoroastrain jewish or christian stories be it apocryphal material? your argument is just plain ridiculous . What does the phrase "meaning that the Prophet has plagiarized and learned books of ancient people..." as interpreted by your eminent imams and mullahs mean? am I to believe since the content of those books are not elaborated it must be dismissed explicitly as not alluding to the tales such as the childhood of Jesus portrayed in your koran this my friend is a logical fallacy of asserting an alternative, of arguing out of silence, ambiguity and ignorance but if you are prepared to defend a 60 yr old man sleeping with a 9 year old girl and claim the 9 yr old girl was not 9 years old even i the testimony is coming from the mouth of said girl, you can defend that black is white with a seared conscience. No you don't know what you are talking about that is obvious, I can see why you join christian forums and leave after a while for being shown to be someone without the least bit of rationale he purports to have, your behaviour is one of a troll there are numerous posts in ex-muslims waiting for your reply. Now say I give you the sirat rasullah page and quote, and you now know who authored it what then? are you even going to focus on the contents of that page? I don't think so, it tells you with the earliest biography of Mohammed that he was getting stories from a christain named jabr even mentioned in the koran. here it is again dodge replying it as best you can: The sirat rasullah page 180
Neither is there proof Mohammed bin abdullah is a rapist, child molester, incest practiser, womaniser, adulterer, fornicator, prophet without a prophecy to his name, mass murderer, and an abomination to call himself a prophet in the name of the true God. |
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