Glad you can join in kingzson, the more the merrier. Although kingzson seems to have a stronger argument then yours Sevryn45.
Come on in the waters fine! Try not to sink my friends.
servyn45 wrote:You have not disproved anything as of yet, you have yet to refute any of the points that I presented.
Okie Dokie!
Interestingly, Yahshua is saying that He is the Spirit—that He and the Spirit are one in the same. Let’s examine the totality of this profound truth within the context in which Yahshua made this reality known to His disciples. The conversation is recorded in the 14th chapter of John’s Gospel. It provides the ultimate insight into the nature of God—our ultimate destination.
Read carefully because it's amplyfied; THIS IS FOR YOUR BENEFIT NOT MINE. This is Greek, translated and amplyfied.
“Iesou [Pronounced EE AY SU, was designed to transliterate Yahshua, Hebrew for savior. There was no “Y” or “SH” sound in Greek. And the “A” at the end of His name couldn’t be added without violating grammatical rules. Since we have the ability to replicate the correct sounds toady, Yahshua] said, ‘I Am [Yahweh means “I Am”] the hodos (way, route and means) and the truth, and the life; no one erchomai (appears before or accompanies) the Pater (Father), but through Me. If you ginosko (know or understand) Me, you ginosko My Father also. You have horao (seen, experienced, beheld) Him.... He who has horao Me has horao the Father. [Yahshua is claiming that He is Yahweh in the flesh.] Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father meno (abiding or dwelling) in Me [Yahweh’s Spirit] does His works. Pisteuo (trust in or rely upon) Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise rely upon the account of the works themselves. [Christ performed countless miracles to confirm his deity.] Amen (This is trustworthy) what I say to you; he who pisteuo (trusts in and relies upon) Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I poreuomai (traverse, or go) to the Father. And whatever you aiteo (ask, desire, or require) in My onoma (name, authority, or character), that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Huios (Son, as in figurative kinship). If you ask Me anything in My onoma, I will do it. If you agapao (love in a moral sense) Me, you will tereo (keep an eye on) My entole (prescriptions). And I will ask the Father, and He will didomi (give or bestow upon) you allos (a) Parakletos (Intercessor, Advocate, Comforter), that He may meno (abide, indwell, or be with) you aion (forever); that is the Pneuma (Holy Spirit) of Truth, whom the world cannot lambano (receive), because it does not theoreo (discern, experience, consider, or behold) Him or ginosko (know or understand) Him, but you ginosko Him because He meno (abides or dwells) with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphanos (bereaved, comfortless, or fatherless); I will erchomai (come back and enter) you. After a little while the world will see Me no more [He’s predicting his crucifixion]; but you will theoreo (experience, behold, or look upon) Me; because I live [He’s predicting his resurrection], you shall live also. [That’s the Gospel: we get to live forever with Him because He sacrificed Himself as payment for our sins—the final solution.] In that day you shall know and understand that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.”
See nothing whatsoever in this commentary that Disproves the Trinity! All I see is an example pointing to the deity of Christ which I agree, nothing concrete that is able to refute my responses. Try again.
The Spirit of the Messiah, Yahshua, is the Holy Spirit, which is Yahweh. And collectively these manifestations of Yahweh created us and called out the ekklesia. These are all manifestations of the same thing. It’s not three persons like Matthew, Mark, and John. It’s Yahweh the Spirit, the Creator, the Savior, the Comforter. For example: my name is Dom; there is only one of me. Yet I am a father, a son, and a comforter to my family. Water’s three forms—ice liquid, and vapor—are all pure water. Their substance does not changed—just their manifestation as a result of their level of energy.
This guy has NOT done his research nor knows logic, I will clearly disprove his false doctrine of Modalism:
If the case of switching roles is True then we have a serious error in Oneness, do you not agree that God is One absolutely? OK, How is God one if He plays the Role of Father, Son and Spirit? Do you call that Oneness? Can you see this? You clearly have 2 separate and distinct roles that are one in unity and not
number. I am actually in sorrow that you are easily led into deception. Jesus said that His sheep hear His voice and hearken unto Him and do not listen to the voice of strangers, why have you? I am only concerned for you. I have carefully put in emphasis and huge fonts so that you can see how the commentator further strengthens my point, ready to see?
Scripture time,YAY!
John 17:22 - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
We be one even as the Father and the Son are one? Do you or do you not understand the spiritual definition of UNITY? THANK YOU JESUS(GOD IS AWESOME!!!) for clarifying to me how oneness is clearly displayed, unless you disagree with Jesus, do you? You must understand that that the (oneness) of The Triune God is a function of unity. So as Jesus CLEARLY explicated, are you and me one or two persons?
It begins with Christ’s last words on the cross and explains why he was hanging there. “My God, my God, why have you azab (relinquished, left or forsaken) me? Far from my deliverance are the words of my groaning. O my God, I cry by day, but You do not answer; and by night, but I have no rest. Yet You are Holy, O You who are enthroned upon the praises of Israel. In You our fathers trusted; they trusted, and you did deliver them. To You they cried out, and were delivered; In You they trusted, and were not disappointed.” (Psalm 22:1-5)
I do not understand the mechanics of this miracle. But fortunately, I do not need to know how it happened to appreciate why it happened—or to benefit from it.
Yahshua is Yahweh in the form of a man. His name, I Am, defines Him. He is eternal. The immortal cannot die, thus God could not die on the cross—only the flesh His Spirit occupied and His human Soul could endure that indignity.
God can, however, feel pain. Psalm 22 will go on to detail the most torturous elements of His suffering. It was at the end of a long day. He had been tried, spit upon, beaten, and whipped by His own creation. His Spirit and the temporary body it occupied had suffered, sacrificed, and bled beyond our comprehension. We nailed God to a cross. But when His body neared death, Yahweh’s Spirit departed. That is what this question affirms: “My God why have you forsaken me?” To forsake is to abandon, to separate—to damn in a Biblical sense. The Hebrew word is azab; it means “to relinquish,” to “leave destitute.”
The abandonment is explained in the next verse. “Why are You so rachoq (far removed or remote) from yasha (helping me, or keeping me safe) from the moaning roars?
The middle portion of the passage affirms that this question will be posed in agony. In Hebrew, it says that He will call out to God by name, but that He will not respond. The following verse confirms the pain He will endure that day and the torment that the Soul which resided in the broken body would bear in the darkness of the long night that would follow. The Hebrew word translated night, layil, actually defines hell—“the adversity of being away from light.” There would be no rest as Yahshua’s Soul, not Yahweh’s Spirit, descended into the darkness of hell—the one place God Himself could not go. Hell, the home of the Adversary, is Lightless. Yahshua’s Soul would suffer there, as His body had suffered on the cross—all for our benefit.
Lord have mercy! Where does this guy come up with this? The reason why Jesus Cried out why have you forsaken me is clearly a demonstration that He is a distinct person. The sins of the world was placed upon Jesus as he died and suffered for your sins on the cross. He was that sinless sacrifice without spot nor blemish,
God cannot be in the presence of sin, therefore one member had to have sin placed upon Him in order for this to be accomplished, When the Son had the sins of the world placed upon Him, the Father who cannot be in the presence of sin had to separate Himself from the Son at that very moment. God Loved this world SO MUCH, that He forsaken His only Son. Jesus cried out those words to demonstrate Gods Love, do you not understand the depths of His Love? Well I know because I abide in Him and He in me and He tells me how much He loves me daily, literally.
When scholars choose which word they think fits, they are at best guessing. But that's not the biggest problem. No language translate word for word to another. And many Hebrew and Greek words have many meanings and important shadings--all of which are lost when we read word for word translations. A great example is the Hebrew word "shem." It is always translated "name." But that is one of 13 meanings--and by no means the most important one. By not amplifying the Hebrew to include them all the reader is cheated out of 90% of what Yahweh was telling us. And one of the benefits of Biblical Hebrew and Greek being dead languages, the meanings of words no longer shifts in those languages like it does in our own. So when Strongs or others say that shem meant character, position, nature, mark and authority in addition to name when Yahweh inspired it to be used by His prophets, it still means all of those things.
Now, as for my point, while it's possible that Yahweh wants us to know something that He does not explicitly say, it's not as likely as if He actually said it. And that's all I meant by the word Trinity not being there. It is less likely that the concept of Trinity is important to Him if He doesn't say it or explain it, that's all.
Thanks to Constantine and the RCC, much of what Christians practice as Christianity is actually Satanic. The more I study, the more concerned I become with how lost the church has become.
And I have read very old and very well researched pieces on the creation of the Trinity doctrine and how and why the word "persons" or "personas" was first used as a subset of Greek philosophy. It's too long to cover here, but the bottom line is that in the context of the time the position was first articulated, persona in a philosophical sense meant manifestations. The word meaning has shifted over time giving folks the wrong impression that persona was to mean three individuals.
Reeeeaaallllyyyyy? Uh huh!, too long to cover, If He was so much concerned about the Church then he would have covered it. I have heard all sides of this argument and have come across people such as him who claim to have have refuted scholars on the subject of the Trinity. He has no concreted evidence whatsoever to back his argument up, from where? And the word shem means character, position in what, Hebrew or Greek? There are over 30 different meanings for the word shem in Hebrew and about one in Greek, so which is He referring to so I can further prove my point. So do you actually pray before responding to me, or do you naturally rely and TRUST in mans commentary to guide your path? Here is a verse in Scripture so that you may take heed:
Romans 16:18 - For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.
servyn45 wrote:I am worn out
I’m sure you are because the LORD told me so, do you understand?
servyn45 wrote:I don't use Bibles but It seems that you do, and I already refuted your claim that there are 3 distinct persons in the GodHead with John 14 amplyfied Greek.
.
WHERE? I don’t see any?
servyn45 wrote:Is reading not research? Is studying amplyfied scripture from Greek not reseach. REFUTE ME WITH APLYFIED GREEK PRE RCC Manuscripts, you won't because you cant.
I can't? If I may, please show me the verses of the APLYFIED GREEK PRE RCC Manuscripts. Please do so! I am dying to see what those scriptures have to say, because as far as I am concerned that the scriptures I have posted can be proven in yuor manuscripts as authentic, so show me so I can debunk weak arguments.
servyn45 wrote:Did 1st century Jewish Christians belive in 3 Gods? No they did not, they believed in manifestations of Yahweh AS DID THE ESSENES. Refute me using pre RCC Greek NT Manuscripts, I am waiting.
Three GODS? The essenes know more about Unity than you do. Of course God is one. The same word one is used to describe the Unity of God and God as One God. Let us see!
The word ONE
heis(hice) Is used in these passages in Scripture and I challenge you to say that it reads otherwise or to ACTUALLY PROVE to me that is reads differently in a predated form Here are the Scriptures.
- Mark 12:32 - And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
- John 17:23 - I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
Hmmm......Your probably going to come up with some nonsensical argument that is based on your own understanding which the Bible forewarns us not to do such. If you do then your only deceiving yourself, think about it my friend. I have been around for quite a while and seen all types of responses, the question is whether you are willing to be HUMBLY corrected?
Omega get a Greek copy of NT and amplyfy John chapter 14, let's study the passage and see exactly what it says before you jump to conclusion.
We can go passage by passage, after were done with John 14 you can give me another passage and we can amplyfy that and see what it says in that context.
“Iesou [Pronounced EE AY SU, was designed to transliterate Yahshua, Hebrew for savior. There was no “Y” or “SH” sound in Greek. And the “A” at the end of His name couldn’t be added without violating grammatical rules. Since we have the ability to replicate the correct sounds toady, Yahshua] said, ‘I Am [Yahweh means “I Am”] the hodos (way, route and means) and the truth, and the life; no one erchomai (appears before or accompanies) the Pater (Father), but through Me. If you ginosko (know or understand) Me, you ginosko (know or understand) My Father also. You have horao (seen, experienced, beheld) Him.... He who has horao (seen, experienced, beheld) Me has horao (seen, experienced, beheld) the Father. [Yahshua is claiming that He is Yahweh in the flesh.] Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on My own initiative, but the Father meno (abiding or dwelling) in Me [Yahweh’s Spirit] does His works. Pisteuo (trust in or rely upon) Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise rely upon the account of the works themselves. [Christ performed countless miracles to confirm his deity.] Amen (This is trustworthy) what I say to you; he who pisteuo (trusts in and relies upon) Me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I poreuomai (traverse, or go) to the Father. And whatever you aiteo (ask, desire, or require) in My onoma (name, authority, or character), that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Huios (Son, as in figurative kinship, Some manuscripts translate it as works). If you ask Me anything in My onoma, I will do it. If you agapao (love in a moral sense) Me, you will tereo (keep an eye on) My entole (prescriptions). And I will ask the Father, and He will didomi (give or bestow upon) you allos (a) Parakletos (Intercessor, Advocate, Comforter), that He may meno (abide, indwell, or be with) you aion (forever); that is the Pneuma (Holy Spirit) of Truth, whom the world cannot lambano (receive), because it does not theoreo (discern, experience, consider, or behold) Him or ginosko (know or understand) Him, but you ginosko(know or understand) Him because He meno (abides or dwells) with you, and will be in you. I will not leave you orphanos (bereaved, comfortless, or fatherless); I will erchomai (come back and enter) you. After a little while the world will see Me no more [He’s predicting his crucifixion]; but you will theoreo (experience, behold, or look upon) Me; because I live [He’s predicting his resurrection], you shall live also. [That’s the Gospel: we get to live forever with Him because He sacrificed Himself as payment for our sins—the final solution.] In that day you shall know and understand that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you.”
??? What? Of Course Christ is God, that commentary shows nothing whatsoever that disproves the Triune Nature of God. Greek and Hebrew words don’t surprise me my friend, I know both Greek and Hebrew, so as to your point??? All you have done is compiled data from different sources which are evidently either unreliable or further strengthening my argument.
kingzson wrote:Ok omega let me address you the best i know how........
( ISAIAH 9:6-7.....For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given:and the government shall be upon his shoulder:and his name shall be called wonderful,counselor,The mighty God,THE EVERLASTING FATHER,the prince of peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end,upon the throne of David,and upon his kingdom,to order it,and to establish itwith judgement and with justice from henceforth even forever.The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.)
From this scripture i see all of deity even THE EVERLASTING FATHER,dwelling in the MAN Christ Jesus.
...........................................................................................................
Please allow me to make something perfectly clear.......There was nothing supernatural about the fleshly body of Jesus christ it was flesh and blood just like you and i the only diffrence was it was a body without sin because of the fact it was not tainted by that adamic nature........because there was no man involved in that process.........the only thing supernatural was that deity(all of the Godhead which indwelled that human body.)
please allow me to use one of the disciples who in my humble opinion received a bad rap..........The disciple i am referring to is Thomas whom some call doubting.
Can you remember the account in which he stated to the effect that he would not believe unless he could place his fingers into the palms of Christ and his side.................Do you remember the comment which he made?................."MY LORD AND MY GOD" it was by this statement that i believe he personally had a revelation of who He(Jesus)was......HE WAS BOTH ALL GOD AND ALL MAN.
Both of you guys seem to fail to understand the Deity of Christ, of course He is fully God and Man. Of course Jesus will be called the Everlasting Father as stated By Isaiah the prophet. Once again I will demonstrate how the both of you fail to see the oneness relation wise and not in number.John 17:23 - I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
If the Father became the Son then you have an enormous problem, lets examine this verse very carefully. There is (NOW WAY) out of this one.
John 17:5 - And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which (I had with thee before the world was.)
So how is it possible that the Father became the Son by switching roles If
the Son shared the Glory with
the Father BEFORE the World???????
Try as you guys may, the only interpretation you guys will come up with will be your own understanding. I love both you guys and am concered that you be not deceived by false teachers that are prevalent in this modern church age. With deceitful and fancy words they twist God into a pretzel, being incomprehensible to fathom with common logic.
(John 12:43 - For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.) God is not the author of confusion my friends. I respond to you because I love God with All my heart and if I don't then I am a LIAR, I am here to Glorify God
in Spirit and in Truth and to take out the garbage that has infiltrated our Church.
I love this verse because it is one of my favorites, If you only understood why the family in Heaven Praise God from their (HEARTS) FOREVER!!! Because He is AWESOME and there is none like Him. Try and understand the word ONE here please.
(My sheep hear my voice), and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. John 10:27-30
God Bless!