Christian/Muslim ThreadsTrinity ~ God is One not 3!Greetings everyone... hope ya'll are doing well... sorry for the delay... been a long weekend here... thursday friday and saturday... and i dont have an internet connection at home yet... so its sunday and here is my post...... True.. that is sooo very true... it is human nature... man just cant get over the "I" part.... very rarely will it be something about anyone but "I".. these are the people who are usually called saints, samaraitans... mr. good guy etc... eg Mother Theresa.... It cant be denied.. the "I" is built-in into man... this is one of the reasons why we have so much strife in the world... did you know that there are only 2 things in existance that matter??? God and I... all else is un-important... this college degree i have... this computer geek knowledge i have... this ... this ... this... all of it is a waste of time... absolutely futile... a man lives as an independent for about 50-60 years... then dies. what has he accomplished? nothing. he ate, slept, drank,procreated,partied,worked... but what is the end result? nothing. if he hasnt gained any spiritual knowledge or to put it in more laymans terms if man doesnt know his purpose in life and after... whats the use then??? i think i have gone way off here... sorry about that... i usually tend to do this... What i am trying to say is the "self" / "I" is what seperates us from God as you said... but this is a fact... there is no unity as such between us and God... He and I are seperate. Tell me something... God has created everything. animate and inanimate... God also created our brain... He also gave us this intelluctial soul searching curisoty knowledge... and there has to be a reason why He did so. Why did He give us a brain? to understand. for instance... animals... i dont know about your belief but i believe that they wont be judged by God. why? because they are pre-programmed by God to do just what they are supposed to do. sort of like robots... unlike man ... this robotic attitude is due to the gift or the lack of "freewill to choose" .. animals dont have it. why? no brains... man has it. Why? got brains!! so ... definately there is a purpose to this intelligence that He gave us. Now everyone knows resources should never be wasted... its a sin to waste.. like food. or water or oil etc... it should never be wasted. so is the case with the mind/brain... not using it is contrary to human nature which God made... man would be denying God itself if he were to go against God's set system. To not use the brain/mind/knowledge/intelligence etc is to go against His set system.. and i beieve this. 100% He will never do something which is confusing... after all didnt He say "I am not a god of confusion" or something like that. God is perfect. whatever He does is perfect. whatever He says is perfect. wouldnt His created logic also be perfect? one of the requirements for real justice is to be on the same level. somethig like "Lowest common denominator" ... For God to judge us properly... it would be unfair to use rules which would be un-understandable. If He wants to judge us He will have to do it using rules which are applicable to us... like a court system... using the words "Coz I said so" will never give a just sentence. it would be illogical. confusion. chaos. there has to be a set of rules which are absolute and un-questionable... unfortunately trinity falls in this questionalble category... It is beyond a doubt that no person alive or dead has ever understood or been able to explain trinity to a point of absolute (something.... i cant get the word.... i hope you all understand my point) even the person who first said trinity later on admitted that he too doesnt understand it. BTW.... the childlike faith you mentioned... this is also known as blind faith... the child doesnt know jack. he/she will accept anything said to him/her sunday: Webmaster... you have put in a lot of effort in your post... i must say ..WOW!!... its really nice.... but unfortunately it doesnt answer anything... its still the same typical christian response to a trinity question. "The Trinity is true coz the early church fathers said so after reading the Bible" The same standard examples like the Sun or the Triangle or the Ice-water-steam or the Man who is father/son and work collegue... etc... these are all standard examples that christians 99.99% of the time quote to support the concept of the trinity. and yet every single example with no exceptions what so ever at all fails... miserably.... now i wont go into refuting / explaining how and why they all fail... i am sure you all heard it all before... no point in wasting precious webspace... trinity has 3 persons in it. and these 3 persons are one. i assume one person.. (plz correct me if my assumption is wrong) meaning there are 3 entities in the trinity and these 3 entities are one entity. is this a correct explanation? I do not wish to trivilize your post into which you put so much effort... but honestly i have read it all before... and everysingle time i stop at this point... 3=1??? i feel just like that church father terutullian ... the more i question it the more i feel lost. an un-knowledgable muslim /non-christian will automatically get a polytheistic view... i.e. there is /are multiple members in this "family" ... and this view is what breeds more misunderstanding and problems between us. i come from India... and my language is urdu... and we do have a concept of this majestic plural... a single royal person refering to himself in the plural form... it doesnt make sense in english but in urdu its perfectly correct... i live in the middle east... and arabic is the language here... altho i am not an expert in arabic i do know that this same concept exists in arabic. majestic plural. i dont know any hebrew or aramiac... but ... i assume... these languages are the root of arabic ... BTW urdu is a derivative / descendent etc of arabic... actually its farsi but then whos checking.... so everytime the word WE is used with reference to God ... my understanding is 1 entity. there is no possibility of more than one... whatsoever. but i am sure you heard this all. Who is a better expert in hebrew? a hebrew native (jew/israeli) or a non-hebrew native (christian/non-israeli) for instance... there is this website http://www.askmoses.com ... its a jewish scripture something site.... where they explain stuff... one of theresponses i read there among many was that the WE in the OT meant God (1 entity-singular) and the creation... altho i dont completely subscribe to this idea but it atleast gives a direction i.e. the concept of God in jewish scripture is a single entity ... no family.. no father / son... no multiple personalities... no nothing... there is no doubt in the oneness of God. this brings out a new question ... who is a better explainer of the OT??? The Jew or the Christian??? Why did the jews try to stone Jesus when He said my Father and I are one???? because they understoond it to mean Jesus was trying to claim divinity... which is an absolute no-no in jewish systems... Reference John 1:1..... In the begining was the Word and the Word was with God...... begining??? which begining? the absolute begining or relative begining? i say relative because further down the verse we see "and teh Word was with God" so God was already there. God preceeded the Word. without God there is no word. first has to come the speaker then only can the spoken come. so this begining isnt really an absolute one... it is a relative begining... relative to the origin of the Word. So the word as such is not exactly eternal... in an absolute sense. i think you are getting mixed up or are mixing up things... point 1 is true... teh Quran is the word of God... but point 2... are you saying the Bible or Jesus? because the rest of your post is relevent to Jesus only... it is not about the Bible... i take it you meant Jesus is the word of Yahweh... not the Bible. anyways... my understanding to "the word of God" ... the word of God has a begining... a start... etc but is eternal...it will always remain. there is no end to it. now... it may have existed as an idea before it was uttered.... i.e. as potential energy... i dont know... but what i do know is that it was uttered... if it was uttered... it has a begining (relative begining if you wish to be precise) but if you wish to take into consideration everything then i'd say its eternal... first as potential energy... then as kinetic energy... ( i am not sure if the entire muslim world subscribes to this idea... but its my understanding... and i could be wrong... i am not a definative authority on God) beget v. (-tt-; past begot; archaic begat; past part. begotten) literary 1 father, procreate. 2 cause (anger begets violence). [Old English: related to *be-] begotten past part. of *beget. explaination 1 ie father, procreate etc wont fit in here... the 2nd one is more appropriate... to cause... which means a starting point. which means prior to this starting point there was nothing like this. This too supports my thought of the word of God has a begining altho no end... every cause/effect has a starting point. so too with the word... there is / was a starting point... and if this word is Jesus the god... then ... can a god have a begining? the no end part is immaterial at this junction.... Hence John 1:1 is not a literal statement... it has a more deeper mystic inner meaning... it is not a plain and simple Word=Jesus=God..... this is all pointless after the above explanation.... Fine... so would i be wrong in saying that it was the Father who died at the cross??? can the Father be called the Son? or can the Son be called the Spirit? etc... if yes then my above statement is correct. if not... then there is no single entity but multiple entities.... There is the Father who didnt die at the cross... the Son who did and there is the Spirit. There is a Father who is not the Son.etc... 3 different entities... no single entity... resulting in the "Hear O Israel...." verse false.... (Omega) : hi... how re you doing??? all well i hope... thanks for the response... but i am not quite sure i understood what you are trying to say... Berlin Bear : Hi there... true... H2O is also another example... there is ice, water and steam. back to the sun ... Energy = Light + warmth... anyways these by-products of the sun can be called attributes of the sun... because the sun burns there is light and heat. similarly because God spoke there is the Word of God. Also the Father is fully God, the Son is fully God and teh Spirit is also Fully God. so if the sun is Father and light the Son and heat Spirit.... then these 3 sun parts are just that... parts... not whole in itself... Light does not exist of its own. neither does heat. and as you said sun without these parts is not a sun. meaning the sun is a compound entity. which is sub-divisible... God by defination on the other hand is a non-divisible entity... if God can be sub-divided... then it isnt God... its an entity with parts... a complex machine... take out the cogs and it falls apart. meaning Father is not fully God... neither is Son nor Spirit. That is so very true. Faith can never be debated. there is no defintion for it. but a buddhist or a hindu or a jain or a zorastrian .. they too all have faith... who is correct? Newseed : Hi... You know...i too was like you ... altho i was born in a catholic family... we wernt very much a religious family... church was a once-a-year occasion (christmas) thats it... i wasnt a practicing christian... but deep down i knoew there is a God who is watching... and with no outside intervention i knew that the 3 religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) were successive religions from the same source ... one succeding the other. because the teaching are the same... back then i didnt know that Jesus was anything more than just a figurative metaphorical son. a son just like how we all you and i are sons of God. i didnt know that Jesus died to pay the price he didnt owe. etc... But i did know that there were persons from God who were called Jesus and Muhammed and Moses and Noah and Abraham etc... only in 92-93 (at the age of 20 did i learn more) uptil then i was a non-denomination non-sect non-whatever God fearing person. And then I chose Islam. I asked this question on another forum before and else where... i got just 1 christian response ... the question was can the devil go any good. even anything as small as a grain of rice??? i believe no. an apperent good doesnt count coz the act itself in whole will be evil ... eg winning the first few hands at the craps table can be called good ... but it isnt good in anyways... gambling itself is evil... winning there is not good.. its evil. So since no good can come from the devil... not even an atoms worth... and Islam teaches atleast an atoms worth of good... it has to be non-diabolical. ofcourse the same applies to all religions as all teach atleast 1 good deed. the problems start when man decides to amend these divine rules/regulations thru the non-stop poking and inciting of the devil... Man can choose to deviate. but it doesnt mean the original is wrong. So is Christianity... it started out alright... but somewhere down the line someone decided to amend something. this is true for Islam also... so dont think that i am biased.... i know there are faults incorprated into Islam by the so-called religious personnel... but thats besides the point. The point is i have seen threads here stating Islam is absolute diabolical.. but it isnt... it teaches good. and all good comes from God. I think i am going off topic again.... True... but how does a non-christian accept something if he wont understand it. i guess one of the motivation to be a christian will be the all sins past present and future are forgiven.... anyways... thanks for taking the time to explain.... God bless you all... and guide you all and i to the right path. Peace Ali PS: to the Moderator/administrator who changed the title of this thread... it is absolutely unfair on your part to do this... the title now suggests that i (the person who started the thread) support the idea that 3=1... or rather i believe the idea that 3=1... but its your board... you may do as you wish... Thanks Ali |
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