Calling me a liar is to claim I regard my opinion as greater than this warning:
Rev 21:8
8 "But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." NAS
I have a deep and abiding respect for God's admonitions and have no desire to end up in the Lake of Fire.
So instead of addressing Scripture you continue to attack me, my faith, my faults, and my theology, BTW without anything more than opinion. So lets look at some of the verses gay theology uses to show that David and Jonathon were lovers since this seems to be your only "proof text" that God approves homosexuality.
Gay theology defines "love" as sex and male intimacy as homosexual.
1 Sam 18:4:
"'And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.'
Does this state Jonathon stripped to bare skin?
As a sign and pledge of his friendship, Jonathan gave David his clothes and his armour. Meil, the upper coat or cloak. Maddim is probably the armour coat (vid., 1 Sam 17:39). This is implied in the word wª`ad (OT:5704), which is repeated three times, and by which the different arms were attached more closely to madaayw (OT:4055). For the act itself, compare the exchange of armour made by Glaucus and Diomedes (Hom. Il. vi. 230). This seems to have been a common custom in very ancient times, as we meet with it also among the early Celts (see Macpherson's Ossian).
(from Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament: New Updated Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)"
OT:4598
me` iyl (meh-eel'); from OT:4603 in the sense of covering; a robe (i.e. upper and outer garment):
KJV - cloke, coat, mantle, robe.
me` iym. See OT:4578.
me` iyn (Aramaic). See OT:4577.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.) OT:4598
me` iyl (meh-eel'); from OT:4603 in the sense of covering; a robe (i.e. upper and outer garment):
KJV - cloke, coat, mantle, robe.
me` iym. See OT:4578.
me` iyn (Aramaic). See OT:4577.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
The Hebrew word me`il, Greek stole, Latin stola, stands for a variety of garment used only by men of rank or of the priestly order, rendered the Revised Version (British and American) "robe." It stands for the long garments of the scribes rendered "long robes" (Mark 12:38; Luke 20:46) and "best robe" in the story of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15:22). (For difference between me`il and simlah, see Kennedy, one-volume Hastings, Dictionary of the Bible, 197.) Oriental influences led to the adoption of the long tunic in Rome, and in Cicero's time it was a mark of effeminacy. It came to be known in its white form as tunica alba, or "white tunic," afterward in English "alb."
(from International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia, Electronic Database Copyright (c)1996 by Biblesoft)
Jonathon stripped off his robe and armor, he did not strip naked. A superficial reading of Scripture can be used to justify or prove almost anything you desire, that is why we are told, "to study to show ourselves approved".
Western culture sees any "love" between men as "gay". It is a societal prejudice not found in Eastern cultures. Arab men are not embarrassed to express their affection for each other publicly and when engaged in intimate conversations will lay their hands on each others upper thighs or knees. Do that in America and you will get decked. If you would like a Biblical example; how about Paul's instruction to greet each other with a "holy kiss"? European men greet each other with a kiss without embarrassment of appearing gay.
The Bible is a very earthy book. Lets look at the way Abraham had his servant pledge to find Isaac a suitable wife.
Gen 24:1-9
24:1 Now Abraham was old, advanced in age; and the LORD had blessed Abraham in every way. 2 And Abraham said to his servant, the oldest of his household, who had charge of all that he owned, "Please place your hand under my thigh, 3 and I will make you swear by the LORD, the God of heaven and the God of earth, that you shall not take a wife for my son from the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I live, 4 but you shall go to my country and to my relatives, and take a wife for my son Isaac. " 5 And the servant said to him, "Suppose the woman will not be willing to follow me to this land; should I take your son back to the land from where you came?" 6 Then Abraham said to him, "Beware lest you take my son back there! 7 "The LORD, the God of heaven, who took me from my father's house and from the land of my birth, and who spoke to me, and who swore to me, saying, 'To your descendants I will give this land,' He will send His angel before you, and you will take a wife for my son from there. 8 But if the woman is not willing to follow you, then you will be free from this my oath; only do not take my son back there." 9 So the servant placed his hand under the thigh of Abraham his master, and swore to him concerning this matter. NAS
"Place your hand under my thigh". Have you ever studied what this means? What it means is Abraham told his servant to touch his genitals as he swore the oath. Check with a Rabbinical scholar if you doubt my post.
Christian commentaries either ignore this phrase of clean it up like this one:
Gen 24:1-4
In swearing, the servant put his hand under Abraham's hip. This custom, which is only mentioned here and in Gen 47:29, the so-called bodily oath, was no doubt connected with the significance of the hip as the part from which the posterity issued (46:26), and the seat of vital power; but the early Jewish commentators supposed it to be especially connected with the rite of circumcision. The oath was by "Jehovah, God of heaven and earth," as the God who rules in heaven and on earth, not by Elohim; for it had respect not to an ordinary oath, but to a question of great importance in relation to the kingdom of God. "Isaac was not regarded as a merely pious candidate for matrimony, but as the heir of the promise, who must therefore be kept from any alliance with the race whose possessions were to come to his descendants, and which was ripening for the judgment to be executed by those descendants" (Hengstenberg, Dissertations i. 350). For this reason the rest of the negotiation was all conducted in the name of Jehovah.
(from Keil & Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament: New Updated Edition, Electronic Database. Copyright (c) 1996 by Hendrickson Publishers, Inc.)
Ask an American or any European for that matter, to swear an oath this way and you would get your features mangled.
By putting a gay connotation on this relationship you are doing what many Christians do with the destruction of Sodom. Sodom was judged because of Ez 16:49 and it had nothing to do with homosexuality. The destruction of Sodom and her sister cities is explained by Rabbi's this way:
Classical Jewish texts concur that God did *not* destroy Sodom and Gemorrah because their inhabitants were homosexual. Not at all. Rather, the cities were destroyed because the inhabitents were nasty, depraved, and uncompromisingly greedy. Classical Jewish writings affirm that the primary crimes of the Sodomites were, among others, terrible and repeated economic crimes, both against each other and to outsiders. Saying "God killed them because they were gay" is, to say the least, not the Jewish teaching on the subject.
Consider the following texts:
*****
Your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters. You not only followed their ways, and acted according to their abominations; within a very little time you were more corrupt than they in all your ways. As I live, says the Lord GOD, your sister Sodom and her daughters have not done as you and your daughters have done. This was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her daughters had pride, excess of food and prosperous ease, but did not aid the poor and needy. They were haughty and did abominable things before me; therefore I removed them when I saw it.
Ezekiel 16:46-50
******
the Sodomites, overweeningly proud of their numbers and the extent of their wealth, showed themselves insolent to men and impious to the Divinity, insomuch that they no more remembered the benefits that they had received from him, hated foreigners and declined all intercourse with others. Indignant at this conduct, God accordingly resolved to chastise them for their arrogance...
Josephus, Antiquities I: 194-5
*****
The men of Sodom waxed haughty only on account of the good which the Holy One, blessed be He, had lavished upon them...They said: Since there cometh forth bread out of (our) earth, and it hath the dust of gold, why should we suffer wayfarers, who come to us only to deplete our wealth. Come, let us abolish the practice of travelling in our land...
There were four judges in Sodom named Shakrai (Liar), Shakurai (Awful Liar), Zayyafi (Forger), and Mazle Dina (Perverter of Justice). Now if a man assaulted his neighbour's wife and bruised her, they would say to the husband, Give her to him, that she may become pregnant for thee. If one cut off the ear of his neighbour's ass, they would order, Give it to him until it grows again.
If one wounded his neighbour they would say to the victim, Give him a fee for bleeding thee [bloodletting was sometimes considered medically beneficial in those days; Here the Sodomite judge cruelly ruled that if one beats you until you bleed, you owe your attacker money for this "beneficial" medical service"...]
... they had beds upon which travellers slept. If the guest was too long they shortened him by lopping off his feet; if too short, they stretched him out...
If a poor man happened to come there, every resident gave him a denar [coin], upon which he wrote his name, but no bread was given [the store owners recognized such coins, and refused toa accept them]. When he died, each came and took back his (denar)...
A certain maiden gave some bread to a poor man, hiding it in a pitcher. On the matter becoming known, they daubed her with honey and placed her on the parapet of the wall, and the bees came and consumed her. Thus it is written, And the Lord said, The cry of Sodom and Gomorrah, because it is great (rabbah): whereupon Rab Judah commented in Rab's name: on account of the maiden (ribah).
Babylonian Talmud, Sanhedrin 109a
*****
Said R Levi, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. There was the case of two girls, who went down to draw water from the well. One said to her friend, Why are you pale? The other said, All the food is gone from our house and we are ready to die. What did the other do? She filled the jug with flour and exchanged it for her own. Each took the one of the other. When the Sodomites found out about it, they took the girl (who had shared the food) and burned her. Said the Holy One, blessed be He, Even if I wanted to keep silent, the requirement of justice for a certain girl will not allow me to keep silent. What is written is not, 'In accord with their cry', but, 'according to her cry', referring in particular to the girl.
Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 49:6
*****
R Menhama in the name of R Bibi: This is what the Sodomites had stipulated among themselves. They said, As to any wayfarer who comes here, we shall have sexual relations with him and take away his money.
Genesis Rabbah, Parashah 50:7
*****
Rabbi Ze era said: The men of Sodom were the wealthy men of prosperity, on account of the good and fruitful land whereon they dwelt... Rabbi Nathaniel said: The men of Sodom had no consideration for the honour of their Owner by not distributing food to the wayfarer and stranger, but they even fenced in all the trees on top above their fruit so that so that they should not be seized; not even by the bird of heaven... Rabbi Joshua... said: They appointed over themselves judges who were lying judges, and they oppressed every wayfarer and stranger who entered Sodom by their perverse judgment, and they sent them forth naked...
Rabbi Jehudah said: They made a proclamation in Sodom saying: Everyone who strengthens the hand of the poor or the needy with a loaf of bread shall be burnt by fire. Peletith, daughter of Lot, was wedded to one of the magnates of Sodom. She saw a certain very poor man in the street of the city, and her soul was grieved on his account... Every day when she went out to draw water she put in her bucket all sorts of provisions from her home, and she fed that poor man. The men of Sodom said: How does this poor man live? When they ascertained the facts, they brought her forth to be burnt by fire. She said: Sovereign of all the worlds! maintain my right and my cause (at the hands of) the men of Sodom. And her cry ascended before the Throne of Glory. In that hour the Holy One, blessed be He, said: I will now descend and I will see whether the men of Sodom have done according to the cry of this young woman, I will turn her foundation upwards, and the surface thereof shall be turned downwards.
Pirke de Rabbi Eliezer
*****
Nachmanides commenting on the verse "AND WE SHALL KNOW THEM".
Their intention was to stop people from coming among them, as our rabbis have said, for they thought that because of the excellence of their land... many will come there and they despised charity... they continued provoking and rebelling against Him with their ease and the oppression of the poor... In the opinion of our Rabbis, all evil practices were rampant among them. Yet their fate was sealed because of this sin - i.e. they did not strengthen the hand of the poor and needy - since this sin represented their usual behaviour more than any other. Besides, since all peoples act righteously towards their friends and their poor, there was none among all the nations who matched Sodom in cruelty.
Nahmanides (Ramban) Commentary on Genesis, 13th century
****** For similar views see Numbers Rabbah 9:24 (midrash), the JPS Torah Commentary on Genesis by Nahum M. Sarna, page 135, note #5, and the 'Stone Edition of the Chumash' [better known as the Artscroll Chumash] by Mesorah publications, commentary on page 81.
So the next time someone tries to use Genesis as an excuse to justify homophobia, we can educate them by giving them these sources to read and consider.
Shalom,
Robert Kaiser
****************** Many many thanks to Robert Kaiser for doing the work of collecting those powerful passages about the sin of Sodom. They clarify the story (for which unfortunately I can't site a source) about the great Gaon of Vilna, who sat with voice but no vote on the Council of the Jews of Vilna. His task was to comment from a Torah perspective on new legislation proposed before the Council. When there was no such new legislation, he did not take part in the meeting.
One day a member of the Council put forward a proposal for ending or greatly reducing the influx of Jews from poorer regions into Vilna, where they hoped for a better life. The Gaon rose to leave the meeting. "But Rabbi," said a Councilmember, "we need your comment on this proposed new legislation!"
"What new legislation?" said the Gaon. "This was already the law of Sodom, long ago!" And he left.
The proposal was dropped.
When you interpret OT Scripture using modern western philosophy and psychology you miss a lot of the real significance of Biblical accounts.
As to your psychiatrist, before he posts for me he can visit this website
National Association for Research and Therapy of Homosexuality, read this book “Homosexuality” by Irving Bieber, and check out what Dr. Spitzer publicly stated about conversion therapy a couple years ago. You might also check the DSM III for the APA guidelines on counseling homosexuals, there are guidelines approved by the APA. You might also suggest he get a copy of the January edition of Psychology Today and see what the editor had proposed concerning re-analyzing the APA’s stance on conversion therapy. There is also a recently completed study that shows the higher incidence of depression, substance abuse, suicide, and medical problems found in the gay community are related more to the transitory nature of gay relationships than societal or religious discrimination. This subject is not as cut and dried you seem to suggest or want to believe.
Apparently you did not check out my entire website or you missed this page:
HIV/AIDS As to safe sex, there is an oxymoron. Condoms have a 2% failure rate. My brother infected his lover with HIV when a condom broke.
Was I promiscuous? Yes, but so is the vast majority of the gay community. If you deny this then explain the higher incidence for all STD’s found in the gay community when compared to heterosexuals based on percentages of population.
I really could care less how many Ph.D.’s you have in your congregation, since Scripture tells me:
2 Peter 3:3-7
3 Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." 5 For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, 6 through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. 7 But the present heavens and earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
NAS
Jude 17-19
17 But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ, 18 that they were saying to you, "In the last time there shall be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts."
NAS
2 Tim 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires; 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and will turn aside to myths.
NAS
You can judge me as deluded or simply seeking acceptance and approval from religion, but again this tells me you did not read my website. Allow me to paraphrase a portion of it: “I have suffered more discrimination at the hands of the church since leaving gay life than I ever did while living an open, proud, and active gay life.” So your analysis of my mental and spiritual condition is based on wishful thinking not my real life since if approval from other people is what I am seeking I would have stayed in the gay community.
Call on your experts I have debated Ph.D’s in theology, philosophy, psychology, etc. for almost a decade without changing my theology or my position that homosexual sex is an abomination to God, as well as physically, emotionally, and spiritually damaging to all who remain in the lifestyle.
But, unless they can show me where the Bible is in error they are wasting their time. Psychology changes with the times and who is in control of the executive committe, not by empirical or on-going studies.
Edited for formatting:
Webmaster, we need a PHP editor similar to a html editor so I don't have to correct my formatting errors.