Christian/Muslim ThreadsScientif errors in the Koran: Shooting stars and the devilsThis post may be full of repetition at certain points (sorry) so do feel free to jump over if necessary. Kai replies As a matter of fact I did refer to the origin of meteorites, again may I suggest that you go back and read my post. H2O wrote: Kai replies: Exactly how do you intend to bring supernovas into this whole matter? You see, it makes no more sense than the meteorites. Supernovas are not stones or missiles. Supernovas move in a particular orbit, are you saying that Jinn’s simply stand and wait for that particular star to come a cross and bang. If you consider the regional impact of a supernova, and hope these will solve the problem, think again, let me elaborate on this. The Koran states: Again supernovas are not stones, they are stars, nothing about them even resembles stones, the text in its fallacy described how the stars are placed in the lower heaven as a decoration, and they are a stoning for the devils, that my friend is a fallacy, since supernovas are stars in an orbit and simply do not act like stones. And then again what do you mean by the words: a piercing flame follows him? Are you referring to the fire emitted from a supernova, because it that being case, the blast will never catch up a Jinn (I will get to this point later on). That is of course if you limit jinn’s by physical reality and they are influenced by cosmological fire, heat, cold, distance and the need to fly. Also does it not seem a bit odd to describe the whole scene to supernovas, as we perceive devils being driven away from every side and thrown back, as if we are observing a massive or continuing intrusion? Our observation of supernovas so far (note we do not have full understanding about them yet) has revealed 5 or possibly more supernovas within our galaxy, within the last thousand years. The supernova explodes in its own orbiting region, and even though it has a tremendous effect, it has little or no damaging effect upon other regions of the galaxy and the universe. Thus I am still sticking with the shooting stars, as this is much more evident according to the Koranic text, and least in its framework much more consistent; just think about it: 1) they act like stones or missiles (supernovas do not) 2) we have the frequent events of their occurrence (not just five or more within 10 centuries), 3) they often come in masses, 4) their piercing light and richness in metals, which consists with the koranic description, 5) their consistence with the whole idea in terms of time and distance, which are in consistence with Koran, Otherwise if the supernovas are the means here, the distance, infrequency, lack in overall effect (empty regions) and slow effect compared to the speeding force of an angelic being simply proves inconsistent and ridiculous. Of course the Koran is wrong in its estimate when considering a Jinn’s speed compared to a meteorite but then again, how could they know that. Another point worth mentioning at this point is the whole issue of distances between supernovas and empty regions. The supernovas occur within galaxies only! Which again confuses the matter significantly say, supernovas are supposed to be God’s secret weapon to repel demons. Our galaxy (the Milky Way) extends over an area of 100.000 light years and functions in a galaxy cluster together with 30 other galaxies. Of course supernovas occur within these galaxies. However the distance between galaxy to galaxy reveals that there are vast area of empty regions between the galaxies, even within the galaxy clusters. The distance between the Milky Way and the nearest entities are 100.000 light years to the Large Magellanic cloud and 190.000 light years to the Small Magelanic cloud. Then comes the Andromeda galaxy with a region of 2.3 million light years between. I am sure a demon would figure this out, right? But we can continue, the Virgo Cluster, empty space extending no less than 50 million light years, and then further the Coma Cluster with a empty region between extending no less than 300 million light years. As a matter of fact this has got nothing to do with Quantum Mechanics, but simply empty regions, to which a clever demon with a speed exceeding the light would easily be able to detect. We therefore need to consider the travelling speed of a Jinn compared to the sudden dispersing explosion of a supernova. When a supernova is on its peak and explodes, scientist reckon that most of its mass (speculative figures says 90 %) is flung into space with a speed of 300.000 metres per second. The whole idea of 50.000 years is consistent with the size of the universe and indeed all the seven heavens (according to a Islamic point of view). My point is, if a angel or Jinn is capable of travelling such a distance, we are referring to a speed which exceeds the speed of light by the millions (in a day). This is already a problem in itself as the universe is far greater than 50.000 years and even 50.000 light years. The speed of light is 299, 792, 458 meters per second, compared to 300.000 meters when we consider the explosion of a supernova. But in a day begs for more questions to be asked. If angels do not find these pathways, which last a day and the span is 50.000 years then what is the need of stones or missiles, why not simply close the pathway? Rather than reading quantum mechanics into the matter (which in most cases is pure imagination anyway), the whole point may and should probably rather refer to the actual distance from one heaven to another until you reach the throne of Allah, however Allah knows pathways in which you can do this in one day. Would this not explain the very reason why the Koran refers to power (some scholars translate it permission) say someone needs to pass. And then again, would this not rather consist with the whole ideas of meteorites since the Koran universe is so utterly small, at least compared to the modern knowledge. It seems much more obvious that Muhammad, as did most of the ancient community perceive the stars as on the very edge of the heaven, the distance could simply be speculated in their own ways, thus we get 50.000 years; and when a meteorite fell, it was obvious a star had fallen. It appeared as light and flame, and the place where it would strike was blessed with a great amount of metals. It rather seems obvious that the trend of Muhammad’s concept was much more closely related to the whole idea of revelation, as we have posted again and again already. That angels or jinn’s were able to catch heavenly information in the heavenly realm or by angels who descended to the clouds, and brought it back to humanity mixed with lies, to these poor creatures Allah bombarded them with stars which were very metallic and fiery. A Supernova which involves a galactic blast on its orbit, simply does not fit the picture. Also the whole issue about Jinns being faster than any physical or energizing entity is essential here. An angel can reach Allah’s throne in 50.000 years (at least that is the time of the actual journey). Thus if we consider only the lowest heaven, such a speed exceeds the speed of light billions and billions of times. However, are you assuming that stars travel in such speed? Obviously not, thus since a jinn is faster than the speed of a planetary or star orbit, how do you explain that jinns are not able to evade such stars; if an angel can make it to Allah’s throne in 50.000 years then it exceeds light by billions of times. I know fully well that this whole thing sounds silly, but then again you want to apply physical realities to spiritual beings. In other words supernovas as not missiles, and logically seen a jinn would not be silly enough to sit their and wait for the star to cross his path and then explode, especially if the speed of a jinn even exceeds the light billion and billion of times. How about some calculation, what is the estimated chance, as we think of cosmological size, infrequent supernovas (at least in comparison) and the speed of a Jinn or angel exceeding light billions of times. Keep in mind, even though a Jinn would come across a supernova, which is highly unlikely if fire and heat has such an impact upon spiritual beings (of course he would evade it). But say, such a supernova occurred suddenly, such a spiritual being, possessing its ability to travel with a speed exceeding the speed of light would easily evade both flames, heat and any metallic material. The bottom fact is that even such a blast does not reach the speed of light and a Jinn exceeds it by the millions. Secondly, Supernovas do not disperse over the entire regions of the universe, if a Jinn with the given speed we describe upon it whether quicker or slower than the speed of life, would fly to the edges of the lowest heaven, he would have two advantages 1) the infrequencies of supernovas compared to the rest of the universe and empty regions where supernovas do not occur. 2) Lets also consider the logical complication here as it involves the nature and limits of mankind and human history, as such a heavenly journey, say, a Jinn could fly with the speed of light, would take billions of human years. If however, such a journey to a being exceeding such a speed and make it in 50.000, it is highly questionable that such an event would even take place within the time of human history. Let’s however just stick to the speed of a Jinn flying from Jerusalem to Yemen, a distance approximately 2000 km. Well a twinkling takes certainly less time than a second, scientists and experiments reveal that a twinkling of an eye is so fast that it has not yet been fully concluded yet. However, a reasonable estimate would be anywhere between 8 to ten milliseconds. In other word approximately a thousand times faster than a second. So lets elaborate on this: A Supernova-explosion travels 30.000 km in a second, lets compared that to a speed which travels 2000 km x 1000 (the Jinn's journey from Jersualem to Yemen), in which we end up with a number of 2.000.000 m per second. Compared to the speed of light which is 299, 792, 458 metres per second we are in fact very close. If however we consider the return to Jerusalem, that is if we use H2O’s calculation (which does not have to be exact I agree) we are up to 4.000.000 m per second. Do you get the picture? If we are really going to be modern scientific, the whole supernova factor makes no difference what so ever, and does not solve any problem more than the correct interpretation, that of the shooting stars. Let me just answer to some of the other issues: H2O wrote: Kai wrote: If you are correct that the verse describes the use of flame from fire and copper, which will be sent against them both ie Human and Jinns who try to pass beyond the zones of the Heavens. Then this coheres perfectly with the ancient understanding of meteorites, as the ancient society realised that iron was falling from the sky You completely side tracked the whole thing. Kai responds: Not exactly, what I am doing is merely looking at the Koranic passage from the light of the ancient society, which would perfectly understand the passage in the light of a shooting stars, which releases piercing light and provides metal as it strikes the ground. You can look at all the ancient ideas and sciences on this matter, whether the Arabic, Greek and the Persian. This explanation excludes all the speculative ideas which you read into it. And secondly it deals effectively with the problem of a Jinn’s speed and the size of the universe. As a matter of fact your speculation simply involves more difficulties rather than solving them. My encouragement is still, be a good Muslim stand by your text and challenge modern science and observation. H2O posted wrote: Kai replies: As the verse describes, there is not indication of quantum mechanics or worm-holes if these are the paths of your speculation at this point. May I again encourage you to back up the Koranic text rather than reading modern postulating science into it? An angel take no less than 50.000 on his journey to Allah, one day if Allah permits him. H2O wrote: Kai replies: Again (sorry for repeating myself), actually the verse does not contradict the reality of a shooting star; from ancient observation it fits perfectly. They knew that metallic objects fell from the sky; they also observed these objects as they pierced through the atmosphere and emitted a piercing light and a flame. Here you also need to consider the ancient understanding, that such an idea that rocky objects from heavens were indeed used to repel devilish forces; such ideas were known already in the Persian religions. H2O wrote:
Kai replies: I think we have misunderstood each other at this point, just leave it for now, we will be sidetracked, we probably are already. Well, I am still not convinced about the Supernovas, and I still hold to the Koranic interpretation of stars being shooting stars. Whichever interpretation you follow, they prove to be a fallacy, however, as I am reading ancient science and religious text, I have no doubt about the observation which the Koran describes, and I don’t think I am going to repeat myself again. |
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