Christian/Muslim ThreadsScientif errors in the Koran: Shooting stars and the devilsMy apologies for being so late to reply, I am awfully busy with assignments at the moment. Kai replies: I know, I have not indicated anything against that view (or at least that such is the Muslim view). H2O wrote: Kai replies: Then you admit that shooting stars are stars H20 posted: Kai replies: Think about this from an ancient point of view, stars were considered to be furthest from the earth; in between you had the seven planets and their seven spheres according to ancient Greek science (again a matter of Koranic plagiarism). When people saw a shooting star it was typically considered to be an actual star falling, this is was a matter of observation. Some meteorites hid the earth from which the ancient were able to get metallic sources such as iron; thus there was the concept of stones impacting the earth . However, when they observed a shooting star entering the universe, and the atmospheric gasses instantly would burn up the stone, the observation in an ancient primitive or philosophical society assumed the entity to be a star falling. The misconception derived from the fierce light which the stone emitted as it was burned up in the atmosphere. Nobody said: oh that rock entered our atmosphere, thus it was burned up, no the occurrence by ancient observation was considered to due to occur by events taking place from the starry realm. If you are correct that the verse describes the use of flame from fire and copper, which will be sent against them both ie Human and Jinns who try to pass beyond the zones of the Heavens. Then this coheres perfectly with the ancient understanding of meteorites, as the ancient society realised that iron was falling from the sky. Thus if you consider these verses to be in consistence with science, think again. However, translators do not seem to be in absolute agreement on the matter, Yusuf Ali, translates it as:
and the Mushaf Al-Madinah An-Nabawiyah Koran says:
I will leave you Muslim scholars to argue about that. Your other fallacy is that the passage in its full context (Sura 55: 26-47) may not speak about present occurrence but future events, related to the day of judgement. Some commentators describe the attempt of man and jinns to leave the earth and heavenly zone (if that was possible) and attempt to escape judgement, and the fire and copper to the actual elements of hell (Mushaf Al-Madinah An-Nabawiyah, The Holy Qur-an: English translation of the meanings and Commentary, p. 1664-1667). This may indeed be obvious from verse 31-33: And in verse 37-39: If this being the case, Sura 55: 33-36 does not refer to the actual spying on heavenly information as described in e.g. Sura 37: 6-10 and Sura 67: 5. Thus Sura 55: 33-36 and Sura 37: 6-10 and 67: 5 refer to totally different occasions (and remember this is not my interpretation but a Muslim interpretation). H2O wrote: Kai replies You keep asking this question, I have answered (or explained) this at least three or four times. You have not read this debate thoroughly, which is the very reason why you are replying out of confusion, go back and read my posts. H2O wrote: Kai replies: Did I make any indication to all that? All I referred to was, that Hell is a place where you suffer with fire, but you do not burn up; it’s a specific place for specific torture, which cannot be applied to human kind experience; thus we cannot apply it to spirits as well. That time will come. So my reasons for not jumping into speculation at this point, as you did, is exactly because Hell is still a mystery, which is very different from our realm. H2O wrote: Kai replies: If you Muslims are so uncertain as to the meaning of the Koran, well go ahead, I suggest you take it up with other Koranic translators, who, if I understand it correctly are all inferior to you H2O. Secondly, this issue has already been dealt with, you are merely repeating the issues. Thirdly how is going to solve the problem. As I have mentioned before shooting stars are not stars, neither do stars fulfil the means to stone jinns or human beings since they travel in a fixed orbit. You are running in a circle here H2O (or orbiting), simply repeating the same questions all over again. H2O wrote:
Kai replies: Are we not getting into serious speculation here! Meteorites when they strike our atmosphere appear as a piercing bright flame of light, that is the whole irony here; the passage simply reveals the observation of a shooting star as it appeared to the ancient society. Can stars or suns be fast enough in their orbit to catch a jinn? There is a number of fallacies here! That will first of all depend on the distance between the sun and the jinn. Secondly, as we have mentioned several times, suns orbit, they have specific routes they act in no way as stones. H2O wrote: Kai replies: Again a number of fallacies: Not the whole universe is covered by stars or galaxies there are vast numbers of empty and dark regions. Would this new theory of yours not contradict the whole matter that jinns seek to listen to the heavenly matters, and even what some Hadiths refer to as some kind of space-angelic communication: If your new postulate is correct, then Aisha is wrong, as a matter of fact, you have even contradicted yourself in your claims, as indicated that these stones are the actual stars (which is what the Koran claims but confuses with shooting stars) and thus function far away from our solar-system and somewhere in space where such events, such as stars evading their orbit cannot not be observed or damage the whole cosmological routine and structure. In other words if we now talk about the theory of rates, you need to keep to the whole theory, which indicates that men, devils and jinns would be unable to pass the atmosphere without dying. This theory is one of the major issues related to the conspiracy theory, which refutes that man ever went to the moon. If the theory holds, then no living entity, at least human would be able to survive by passing through the earths atmosphere; In other words (if H2O is correct), then the devil, the devils, jinns and angels, unless they locate themselves in the second heaven and up, they are all located here on earth. Exactly, why, you applie this rule to angels and jinns is somehow remarkable and even contradictory to your whole postulate so far! In other words the so called suns, which catch the jinns still need to strike our atmosphere, which would end human history and solar-history all together. So we are back to the beginning. Also I wonder: Why are you now making this a separate experience, meteorites for human devils and rays for spiritual beings. So are these passages referring to Suns or shooting stars? Are you not playing with the Koranic text here, and applying means of eisigesis or deconstructionism to Koranic meaning? H2O wrote: Kai replies: Exactly what are you referring to here, who or what is killing what or who? The passages do nowhere from its context even indicate that the heavenly intruders are human beings. You seem first to interpret the stones to be suns simply burning the jinns with rates; in this way you supposedly manage to involve stones and fire in one entity. Now you make a second division, claiming that the stones (the suns if we are correct) are related to human devils, while the fire (simply the observation of a shooting stars entering our atmosphere) is related to spirits. So which one is it? H2O wrote: Kai wrote: I don’t know who is more naïve, me or you? Musti wrote to H2O: Kai replies: I know Musti, this seems to be the perpetual problem when you debate H2O you just continue in a circle repeating the same issues over and over again. H2O wrote concerning Jinns, meteorites and suns: Kai replies: A number of fallacies: Just because a Jinn travelled from Solomon’s position to Yemen and back in the twinkling of an eye, you can’t claim that a jinn would evade (or escape) if Allah in his divine providence targeted a jinn with a shooting star. Secondly, does the passage really state in what speed jinns can travel, or did it simply refer to the quickest action as perceived by a human mind and observation? But and thirdly, you are right, a shooting star could never damage a jinn (at least when we consider science and spiritual logic), but on the other hand neither could a sun, travelling in an orbit. In any way, is this supposed to solve the problem any way, as the Koran clearly joints the stars and the shooting stars into on entity? Fourthly, if a jinn is able to travel to Yemen and back to Solomon’s position in the twinkling of an eye what makes you so quick to impose on them material limits? Any one else able to deal with this issue? |
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